Gail Posted 14 September , 2021 Author Share Posted 14 September , 2021 6 minutes ago, Gail said: Oh no im getting so confused again. I presume the address ma have been where he was demobed to and live since its a flat dont even know what m and m and bar means The record is the for John Flower snd definatley not jesse Signal Coy if I have read the LG and this MM card right https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D6160053 = John Edward Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 14 September , 2021 Share Posted 14 September , 2021 (edited) 15 minutes ago, Gail said: Oh no im getting so confused again. I presume the address ma have been where he was demobed to and live since its a flat dont even know what m and m and bar means Hi Gail, We think this man 198847 is different from/is not Jesse. For info: a MM is a Military Medal and a Bar to a MM is a bar go on the MM ribbon to show a further award of another MM - so a MM & Bar is a case of being awarded the MM twice. [it was possible to get even more bars for further MM awards] :-) M Edited 14 September , 2021 by Matlock1418 expand Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dai Bach y Sowldiwr Posted 14 September , 2021 Share Posted 14 September , 2021 Gail, So this must be his birth registration, definitely 1888 (and definitely not 1886 as you first stated): Births Jun 1888 (>99%) FLOWER Elijah Jesse Clutton 5c 539 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gail Posted 14 September , 2021 Author Share Posted 14 September , 2021 12 minutes ago, Gail said: The record is the for John Flower snd definatley not jesse Signal Coy if I have read the LG and this MM card right https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D6160053 = John Edward On 13/09/2021 at 20:55, RaySearching said: This could be him on the 1939 register date slightly out Date of birth shown 24 /4/1889 18 Mill lane Middlesex Yiewsley and West Drayton UD Ray Yes this is him 4 minutes ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said: Gail, So this must be his birth registration, definitely 1888 (and definitely not 1886 as you first stated): Births Jun 1888 (>99%) FLOWER Elijah Jesse Clutton 5c 539 Yes it is. Sorry we have a few dates but the month is not right. Ot was April Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gail Posted 14 September , 2021 Author Share Posted 14 September , 2021 16 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said: Hi Gail, We think this man 198847 is different from/is not Jesse. For info: a MM is a Military Medal and a Bar to a MM is a bar go on the MM ribbon to show a further award of another MM - so a MM & Bar is a case of being awarded the MM twice. [it was possible to get even more bars for further MM awards] :-) M He did get three medals Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dai Bach y Sowldiwr Posted 14 September , 2021 Share Posted 14 September , 2021 1 minute ago, Gail said: He did get three medals Yes that's correct, 1914-15 Star, British War Medal, and Victory Medal. No MM and no Bar. 9 minutes ago, Gail said: 13 minutes ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said: Births Jun 1888 (>99%) FLOWER Elijah Jesse Clutton 5c 539 Yes it is. Sorry we have a few dates but the month is not right. It was April Yes. But in the Birth, Marriage and Deaths Indexes, April is part of the April to June Quarter. And called "June". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RaySearching Posted 14 September , 2021 Share Posted 14 September , 2021 (edited) 27 minutes ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said: Gail, So this must be his birth registration, definitely 1888 (and definitely not 1886 as you first stated): Births Jun 1888 (>99%) FLOWER Elijah Jesse Clutton 5c 539 23 minutes ago, Gail said: Yes this is him Yes it is. Sorry we have a few dates but the month is not right. Ot was April The registration date of birth is correct born April birth registered in the June quarter of 1888 births were registered in four quarters Jan-March April-June July-Sept- and Oct-Dec Edit Dai has already explained he types faster than me Edited 14 September , 2021 by RaySearching typo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 14 September , 2021 Share Posted 14 September , 2021 1 minute ago, Gail said: He did get three medals Jesse FLOWERS, 9469 & 91872 Image courtesy of Ancestry Based on the MIC posted above Jesse FLOWERS got a 1914-15 Star, British War Medal and a Victory Medal = three medals - these are basic war medals [for war service and not for gallantry] There is no evidence [yet?] that he got any gallantry award such as a Military Medal [or for anything else such as a Mention in Despatches - a mention/entry in the London Gazette, but not coming with a medal - short of a medal - and often given for good performance of services provided] :-) M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gail Posted 14 September , 2021 Author Share Posted 14 September , 2021 4 minutes ago, RaySearching said: The registration date of birth is correct born April birth registered in the June quarter of 1888 births were registered in four quarters Jan-March April-June July-Sept-Oct and Oct-Dec Edit Dai has already explained he types faster than me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gail Posted 14 September , 2021 Author Share Posted 14 September , 2021 4 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said: Jesse FLOWERS, 9469 & 91872 Image courtesy of Ancestry Based on the MIC posted above Jesse FLOWERS got a 1914-15 Star, British War Medal and a Victory Medal = three medals - these are basic war medals [for war service and not for gallantry] There is no evidence [yet?] that he got any gallantry award such as a Military Medal [or for anything else such as a Mention in Despatches - a mention/entry in the London Gazette, but not coming with a medal - short of a medal - and often given for good performance of services provided] :-) M So do you think the papaer article we have showing a demob address is not his? If its not then all the data for the next years jntil1964 when he died may have been following the wrong jesse? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clk Posted 14 September , 2021 Share Posted 14 September , 2021 2 hours ago, Gail said: He then as far as we know stayed in the Yiewsley area and dies in a residential home in 1964. BREAKSPEAR HOUSE and death cert says retired military Hi Gail, That's an interesting use of wording. Even if he had served as a pre-war regular, and then in WW1 (being discharged shortly after), well over 40 years would have elapsed prior to his death. Might the use of the word "retired" suggest some kind of (lengthy) post war service??? Regards Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 14 September , 2021 Share Posted 14 September , 2021 (edited) 16 minutes ago, Gail said: So do you think the papaer article we have showing a demob address is not his? I'm sorry I don't know what paper article/address you have/what you are referring to. Can you post an image of what you have so we can all see it? - as seeing the actual item can be very helpful, often in a number of ways [as was the case with your earlier posting of the abstract from The National Register of the Great War]. :-) M Edited 14 September , 2021 by Matlock1418 TNRGW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gail Posted 14 September , 2021 Author Share Posted 14 September , 2021 8 minutes ago, clk said: Hi Gail, That's an interesting use of wording. Even if he had served as a pre-war regular, and then in WW1 (being discharged shortly after), well over 40 years would have elapsed prior to his death. Might the use of the word "retired" suggest some kind of (lengthy) post war service??? Regards Chris No idea chris. I said the same why if you left at the age of say 25 and die at 77 that you say retired military?.??. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 14 September , 2021 Share Posted 14 September , 2021 On 13/09/2021 at 21:04, Gail said: His death cert ( if it is the right one) records say he was a retired soldier Can you post a copy so we can all see it please? :-) M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dai Bach y Sowldiwr Posted 15 September , 2021 Share Posted 15 September , 2021 (edited) 10 hours ago, Gail said: So do you think the paper article we have showing a demob address is not his? By that do you mean the Ranelagh Gardens, Harlesden, address shown in your screenshot on the previous page that Matlock has identified as coming from the National Roll of the Great War? I wouldnt discount that address yet. I think you're going to draw a timeline for every Jesse Flower/s born on the 1885-90 period, including B, M & D and Census info for all of them, also delving into Service and medal records, in order to exclude ineligible candidates. The person dying in 1964 could well be the right man. There must be information in electoral registers also. There are only about 6 born between 1890 - 1895, so there isn t an infinite amount of work to do. Edited 15 September , 2021 by Dai Bach y Sowldiwr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gail Posted 15 September , 2021 Author Share Posted 15 September , 2021 48 minutes ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said: By that do you mean the Ranelagh Gardens, Harlesden, address shown in your screenshot on the previous page that Matlock has identified as coming from the National Roll of the Great War? I wouldnt discount that address yet. I think you're going to draw a timeline for every Jesse Flower/s born on the 1885-90 period, including B, M & D and Census info for all of them, also delving into Service and medal records, in order to exclude ineligible candidates. The person dying in 1964 could well be the right man. There must be information in electoral registers also. There are only about 6 born between 1890 - 1895, so there isn t an infinite amount of work to do. Thank you and yes the address i was refering to was in the national roll. We think so far we have the following Born in clutton 1886 1901 census living in clutton with his grandparents 1911 census at Horefield barracks War period royal engineers two numbers 9469 and 91872 1933 living at 9 st martins cresent uxbridge 1939 to 1951 living at 18 mill road west drayton as public works contractor 1956(?) Went into Breakspear House Residential care Harefield 1964 died at care home aged 77(?) No burial records can be found even though we have contacted the churches and crematoriums Never married Received two medals never found since no immediate family Residential care home is closed so no records Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Michelle Young Posted 15 September , 2021 Admin Share Posted 15 September , 2021 Gail, you keep changing his year of birth, 1886 or 1888, there’s been proof of an 1888 birth posted, also he received 3 medals as per his medal index card posted further up this thread, not 2. Also he served in the 2nd Glosters as well as the REs according to his MIC. People are trying to help, but this conflicting information isn’t helping. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gail Posted 15 September , 2021 Author Share Posted 15 September , 2021 17 minutes ago, Michelle Young said: Gail, you keep changing his year of birth, 1886 or 1888, there’s been proof of an 1888 birth posted, also he received 3 medals as per his medal index card posted further up this thread, not 2. Also he served in the 2nd Glosters as well as the REs according to his MIC. People are trying to help, but this conflicting information isn’t helping. Sorry his birthdate is 24.4.88 The reason i keep getting mixed up is because his cousin called the same name was born in 86 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dai Bach y Sowldiwr Posted 15 September , 2021 Share Posted 15 September , 2021 Gail, As Michelle has pointed out, he was born in 1888, and earned 3 medals. However, this all assumes that your great-uncle is the soldier in question. As far as I can see, you don't have any hard evidence that he was 9469 and 91872. I agree he is a very likely candidate, and it almost certainly is him, but just to establish that this fact also is only a (admittedly strong) probability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gail Posted 15 September , 2021 Author Share Posted 15 September , 2021 No i agree we dont have this Since we dont have any record from the barracks with his dob etc on but hes not with the original family in 1911. Also he lived in the gloucester /bristol area. Not sure how we can prove it was our Jesse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clk Posted 15 September , 2021 Share Posted 15 September , 2021 Hi Gail, Would it be worth ringing/contacting the Soldiers of Gloucester Museum and asking them if they are likely to hold the enlistment record for a man who is shown to be serving with the 3rd Battalion in the 1911 census? If they are, then my follow up question would be, what information is it likely to contain - 'home' address, NoK, etc? From the link above it looks like they charge £35 to fully research a man. Depending on the answers you get, you could then make an informed decision about whether to take a gamble. I guess that the same questions would apply for the man who went overseas to serve with the 2nd Battalion shortly after the outbreak of WW1. Hopefully, the men are one and the same, and that you may be able to prove that he was your Jesse. Regards Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gail Posted 15 September , 2021 Author Share Posted 15 September , 2021 14 minutes ago, clk said: Hi Gail, Would it be worth ringing/contacting the Soldiers of Gloucester Museum and asking them if they are likely to hold the enlistment record for a man who is shown to be serving with the 3rd Battalion in the 1911 census? If they are, then my follow up question would be, what information is it likely to contain - 'home' address, NoK, etc? From the link above it looks like they charge £35 to fully research a man. Depending on the answers you get, you could then make an informed decision about whether to take a gamble. I guess that the same questions would apply for the man who went overseas to serve with the 2nd Battalion shortly after the outbreak of WW1. Hopefully, the men are one and the same, and that you may be able to prove that he was your Jesse. Regards Chris 14 minutes ago, clk said: Hi Gail, Would it be worth ringing/contacting the Soldiers of Gloucester Museum and asking them if they are likely to hold the enlistment record for a man who is shown to be serving with the 3rd Battalion in the 1911 census? If they are, then my follow up question would be, what information is it likely to contain - 'home' address, NoK, etc? From the link above it looks like they charge £35 to fully research a man. Depending on the answers you get, you could then make an informed decision about whether to take a gamble. I guess that the same questions would apply for the man who went overseas to serve with the 2nd Battalion shortly after the outbreak of WW1. Hopefully, the men are one and the same, and that you may be able to prove that he was your Jesse. Regards Chris Good idea. Ill call them We are trying to find out info pretty quickly so we can put something on his grave in november this year Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gail Posted 15 September , 2021 Author Share Posted 15 September , 2021 2 hours ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said: Gail, As Michelle has pointed out, he was born in 1888, and earned 3 medals. However, this all assumes that your great-uncle is the soldier in question. As far as I can see, you don't have any hard evidence that he was 9469 and 91872. I agree he is a very likely candidate, and it almost certainly is him, but just to establish that this fact also is only a (admittedly strong) probability. You have been a great help thank you all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dai Bach y Sowldiwr Posted 15 September , 2021 Share Posted 15 September , 2021 28 minutes ago, Gail said: so we can put something on his grave in november this year You referred to Abney Park (Stoke Newington) & Greenford Park (Ealing) cemeteries earlier. They are both mentioned on his Ancestry burial record, I'm not sure why. In view of the history of Uxbridge & Harefield, I'd have thought Greenford Park was more likely. Name: Elijah Jesse Flowers Age: 77 Record Type: burial Burial Place: Ealing, Greater London, England Cemetery: Abney Park Cemetery and Greenford Park Cemetery Interment Number: 38280 in 38279 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gail Posted 15 September , 2021 Author Share Posted 15 September , 2021 1 minute ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said: You referred to Abney Park (Stoke Newington) & Greenford Park (Ealing) cemeteries earlier. They are both mentioned on his Ancestry burial record, I'm not sure why. In view of the history of Uxbridge & Harefield, I'd have thought Greenford Park was more likely. Name: Elijah Jesse Flowers Age: 77 Record Type: burial Burial Place: Ealing, Greater London, England Cemetery: Abney Park Cemetery and Greenford Park Cemetery Interment Number: 38280 in 38279 Yes we found this but i called the cemetery and they said they have no records of this! Its all so strange. I think ill call them again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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