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6 minutes ago, Gail said:

Oh no im getting so confused again. I presume the address ma have been where he was demobed to and live since its a flat  dont even  know what m and m and bar means 

The record is the for John Flower snd definatley not jesse Signal Coy if I have read the LG and this MM card right https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D6160053 = John Edward

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15 minutes ago, Gail said:

Oh no im getting so confused again. I presume the address ma have been where he was demobed to and live since its a flat  dont even  know what m and m and bar means 

Hi Gail,

We think this man 198847 is different from/is not Jesse.

For info: a MM is a Military Medal and a Bar to a MM is a bar go on the MM ribbon to show a further award of another MM - so a MM & Bar is a case of being awarded the MM twice. [it was possible to get even more bars for further MM awards]

:-) M

Edited by Matlock1418
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12 minutes ago, Gail said:

The record is the for John Flower snd definatley not jesse Signal Coy if I have read the LG and this MM card right https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D6160053 = John Edward

 

On 13/09/2021 at 20:55, RaySearching said:

This could be him on the 1939 register  date slightly out   Date of birth shown 24 /4/1889

18 Mill lane Middlesex  Yiewsley and West Drayton UD

flowers.JPG.af66c6527c0c68720a1f03b866c60eb4.JPG

Ray

Yes this is him

 

4 minutes ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

Gail,

So this must be his birth registration, definitely 1888 (and definitely not 1886 as you first stated):

Births Jun 1888   (>99%)
FLOWER  Elijah Jesse    Clutton  5c 539  btnInfo.gif

Yes it is.  Sorry we have a few dates but the month is not right. Ot was April

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16 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

Hi Gail,

We think this man 198847 is different from/is not Jesse.

For info: a MM is a Military Medal and a Bar to a MM is a bar go on the MM ribbon to show a further award of another MM - so a MM & Bar is a case of being awarded the MM twice. [it was possible to get even more bars for further MM awards]

:-) M

He did get three medals 

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1 minute ago, Gail said:

He did get three medals 

Yes  that's correct, 1914-15 Star, British War Medal, and Victory Medal.

No MM and no Bar.

9 minutes ago, Gail said:
13 minutes ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:
Births Jun 1888   (>99%)
FLOWER  Elijah Jesse    Clutton  5c 539  btnInfo.gif

Yes it is.  Sorry we have a few dates but the month is not right. It was April

Yes. But in the Birth, Marriage and Deaths Indexes, April is part of the April to June Quarter. And called "June".

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27 minutes ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

Gail,

So this must be his birth registration, definitely 1888 (and definitely not 1886 as you first stated):

Births Jun 1888   (>99%)
FLOWER  Elijah Jesse    Clutton  5c 539  btnInfo.gif

 

23 minutes ago, Gail said:

 

Yes this is him

 

Yes it is.  Sorry we have a few dates but the month is not right. Ot was April

The registration  date of birth is correct born April  birth registered in the June quarter of 1888

births were registered in four quarters Jan-March  April-June   July-Sept- and Oct-Dec 

 

Edit Dai  has already explained he types faster than me

Edited by RaySearching
typo
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1 minute ago, Gail said:

He did get three medals 

Jesse FLOWERS, 9469 & 91872

1528453486_FLOWERSJ.9469-91872.png.9e238ec2170b52f55ce81153e35441c3.png

Image courtesy of Ancestry

Based on the MIC posted above Jesse FLOWERS got a 1914-15 Star, British War Medal and a Victory Medal = three medals - these are basic war medals [for war service and not for gallantry]

There is no evidence [yet?] that he got any gallantry award such as a Military Medal

[or for anything else such as a Mention in Despatches - a mention/entry in the London Gazette, but not coming with a medal - short of a medal - and often given for good performance of services provided]

:-) M

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4 minutes ago, RaySearching said:

 

The registration  date of birth is correct born April  birth registered in the June quarter of 1888

births were registered in four quarters Jan-March  April-June   July-Sept-Oct and Oct-Dec 

 

Edit Dai  has already explained he types faster than me

 

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4 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

Jesse FLOWERS, 9469 & 91872

1528453486_FLOWERSJ.9469-91872.png.9e238ec2170b52f55ce81153e35441c3.png

Image courtesy of Ancestry

Based on the MIC posted above Jesse FLOWERS got a 1914-15 Star, British War Medal and a Victory Medal = three medals - these are basic war medals [for war service and not for gallantry]

There is no evidence [yet?] that he got any gallantry award such as a Military Medal

[or for anything else such as a Mention in Despatches - a mention/entry in the London Gazette, but not coming with a medal - short of a medal - and often given for good performance of services provided]

:-) M

So do you think the papaer article we have showing a demob address is not his?  If its not then all the data for the next years jntil1964 when he died may have been following the wrong jesse? 

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2 hours ago, Gail said:

He then as far as we know stayed in the Yiewsley area and dies in a residential home in 1964. BREAKSPEAR HOUSE  and death cert says retired military

Hi Gail,

That's an interesting use of wording. Even if he had served as a pre-war regular, and then in WW1 (being discharged shortly after), well over 40 years would have elapsed prior to his death. Might the use of the word "retired" suggest some kind of (lengthy) post war service???

Regards

Chris

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16 minutes ago, Gail said:

So do you think the papaer article we have showing a demob address is not his? 

I'm sorry I don't know what paper article/address you have/what you are referring to.

Can you post an image of what you have so we can all see it? - as seeing the actual item can be very helpful, often in a number of ways [as was the case with your earlier posting of the abstract from The National Register of the Great War].

:-) M

Edited by Matlock1418
TNRGW
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8 minutes ago, clk said:

Hi Gail,

That's an interesting use of wording. Even if he had served as a pre-war regular, and then in WW1 (being discharged shortly after), well over 40 years would have elapsed prior to his death. Might the use of the word "retired" suggest some kind of (lengthy) post war service???

Regards

Chris

No idea chris. I said the same why if you left at the age of say 25 and die at 77 that you say retired military?.??.

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On 13/09/2021 at 21:04, Gail said:

His death cert ( if it is the right one)  records say he was a retired soldier

Can you post a copy so we can all see it please?

:-) M

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10 hours ago, Gail said:

So do you think the paper article we have showing a demob address is not his? 

By that do you mean the Ranelagh Gardens, Harlesden, address  shown in your screenshot on the previous page that Matlock has identified as coming from the National Roll of the Great War? 

I wouldnt discount that address yet. I think you're  going to draw a timeline for every Jesse Flower/s born on the 1885-90 period, including B, M & D and Census info for all of them, also delving into Service and medal records, in order to exclude  ineligible candidates. The person dying in 1964 could well be the right man.

There must be information in electoral registers also.

There are only about 6 born between 1890 - 1895, so there isn t  an infinite amount of work to do.

 

Edited by Dai Bach y Sowldiwr
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48 minutes ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

By that do you mean the Ranelagh Gardens, Harlesden, address  shown in your screenshot on the previous page that Matlock has identified as coming from the National Roll of the Great War? 

I wouldnt discount that address yet. I think you're  going to draw a timeline for every Jesse Flower/s born on the 1885-90 period, including B, M & D and Census info for all of them, also delving into Service and medal records, in order to exclude  ineligible candidates. The person dying in 1964 could well be the right man.

There must be information in electoral registers also.

There are only about 6 born between 1890 - 1895, so there isn t  an infinite amount of work to do.

 

Thank you and yes the address i was refering to was in the national roll. We think so far we have the following

 

Born in clutton 1886

1901 census living in clutton with his grandparents

1911 census at Horefield barracks

War period royal engineers two numbers 9469 and 91872

1933 living at 9 st martins cresent uxbridge 

1939 to 1951 living at 18 mill road west drayton as public works contractor 

1956(?) Went into Breakspear House Residential care Harefield

1964 died at care home aged 77(?)

No burial records can be found even though we have contacted the churches and crematoriums 

Never married

Received two medals never found since no immediate family

Residential care home is closed so no records 

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Gail, you keep changing his year of birth, 1886 or 1888, there’s been proof of an 1888 birth posted, also he received 3 medals as per his medal index card posted further up this thread, not 2. Also he served in the 2nd Glosters  as well as the REs according to his MIC. People are trying to help, but this conflicting information isn’t helping.

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17 minutes ago, Michelle Young said:

Gail, you keep changing his year of birth, 1886 or 1888, there’s been proof of an 1888 birth posted, also he received 3 medals as per his medal index card posted further up this thread, not 2. Also he served in the 2nd Glosters  as well as the REs according to his MIC. People are trying to help, but this conflicting information isn’t helping.

Sorry his birthdate is 24.4.88

 

The reason i keep getting mixed up is because his cousin called the same name was born in 86 

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Gail,

As Michelle has pointed out, he was born in 1888, and earned 3 medals.

However, this all assumes that your great-uncle is the soldier in question. As far as I can see, you don't have any hard evidence that he was 9469 and 91872. I agree he is a very likely candidate, and it almost certainly is him, but just to establish that this fact also is only a (admittedly strong) probability.

 

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No i agree we dont have this Since we dont have any record from the barracks with his dob etc on but hes not with the original family in 1911. Also he lived in the gloucester /bristol area. Not sure how we can prove it was our Jesse 

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Hi Gail,

Would it be worth ringing/contacting the Soldiers of Gloucester Museum and asking them if they are likely to hold the enlistment record for a man who is shown to be serving with the 3rd Battalion in the 1911 census? If they are, then my follow up question would be, what information is it likely to contain - 'home' address, NoK, etc? From the link above it looks like they charge £35 to fully research a man. Depending on the answers you get, you could then make an informed decision about whether to take a gamble.

I guess that the same questions would apply for the man who went overseas to serve with the 2nd Battalion shortly after the outbreak of WW1. Hopefully, the men are one and the same, and that you may be able to prove that he was your Jesse.

Regards
Chris

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14 minutes ago, clk said:

Hi Gail,

Would it be worth ringing/contacting the Soldiers of Gloucester Museum and asking them if they are likely to hold the enlistment record for a man who is shown to be serving with the 3rd Battalion in the 1911 census? If they are, then my follow up question would be, what information is it likely to contain - 'home' address, NoK, etc? From the link above it looks like they charge £35 to fully research a man. Depending on the answers you get, you could then make an informed decision about whether to take a gamble.

I guess that the same questions would apply for the man who went overseas to serve with the 2nd Battalion shortly after the outbreak of WW1. Hopefully, the men are one and the same, and that you may be able to prove that he was your Jesse.

Regards
Chris

 

14 minutes ago, clk said:

Hi Gail,

Would it be worth ringing/contacting the Soldiers of Gloucester Museum and asking them if they are likely to hold the enlistment record for a man who is shown to be serving with the 3rd Battalion in the 1911 census? If they are, then my follow up question would be, what information is it likely to contain - 'home' address, NoK, etc? From the link above it looks like they charge £35 to fully research a man. Depending on the answers you get, you could then make an informed decision about whether to take a gamble.

I guess that the same questions would apply for the man who went overseas to serve with the 2nd Battalion shortly after the outbreak of WW1. Hopefully, the men are one and the same, and that you may be able to prove that he was your Jesse.

Regards
Chris

Good idea. Ill call them  We are trying to find out info pretty quickly so we can put something on his grave in november this year

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2 hours ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

Gail,

As Michelle has pointed out, he was born in 1888, and earned 3 medals.

However, this all assumes that your great-uncle is the soldier in question. As far as I can see, you don't have any hard evidence that he was 9469 and 91872. I agree he is a very likely candidate, and it almost certainly is him, but just to establish that this fact also is only a (admittedly strong) probability.

 

You have been a great help thank you all

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28 minutes ago, Gail said:

so we can put something on his grave in november this year

You referred to Abney Park (Stoke Newington) & Greenford Park (Ealing) cemeteries earlier.
They are both mentioned on his Ancestry burial record, I'm not sure why.

In view of the history of Uxbridge & Harefield, I'd have thought Greenford Park was more likely.

Name: Elijah Jesse Flowers
Age: 77
Record Type: burial
Burial Place: Ealing, Greater London, England
Cemetery: Abney Park Cemetery and Greenford Park Cemetery
Interment Number: 38280 in 38279
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1 minute ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

You referred to Abney Park (Stoke Newington) & Greenford Park (Ealing) cemeteries earlier.
They are both mentioned on his Ancestry burial record, I'm not sure why.

In view of the history of Uxbridge & Harefield, I'd have thought Greenford Park was more likely.

Name: Elijah Jesse Flowers
Age: 77
Record Type: burial
Burial Place: Ealing, Greater London, England
Cemetery: Abney Park Cemetery and Greenford Park Cemetery
Interment Number: 38280 in 38279

Yes we found this but i called the cemetery and they said they have no records of this!  Its all so strange. I think ill call them again 

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