What a life

[PRC]

Hi @peter Hearn,

I've been trying to explore the angle of the brother Richard, born 1885 and last seen on the 1901 Census of England & Wales.

Not seeing any likely deaths as Clancy or Clancey in England & Wales until 1949 -  Richard CLANCY aged 64, death recorded in the Fylde District of Cheshire, Q3 1949. No obvious civil probate.

Possible marriage of a Richard CLANCY to a Margaret Malley in the Fylde District in Q2 1916. Possibly related is a page of a service record of a R. CLANCY who joined the Cheshire Regiment as a Special Reservist in August 1914 - no other details as it was a memo that included his name along with other new recruits.

Going back to the 1911 Census of England & Wales, there is a 23 year old Richard CLANCY, an unmarried Dock Labourer, born Newport, Monmouthshire, who was recorded as a boarder at 46, Preston Street, Fleetwood, Lancashire. As with all of this information it could just be co-incidence, but that address fell within the area covered by the Fylde Civil Registration District. This was the household of an Emily Forshaw, (57), a widow and her three adult sons, all dock labourers. Even more than usual I take the ages of boarders, lodgers and visitors that are reported on the Census with a pinch of salt

My final throw of the dice was to try a search of the newspapers on FindMyPast using the criteria "Richard Clancy" "Fleetwood"

SPOILER ALERT. From page 12 of the Fleetwood Chronicle 03 August 1945

Read on.........

Image courtesy FindMyPast.

Another interesting line of investigation is opened up by a report on the marriage in 1916.

From the Fleetwood Express 10 May 1916

So possibly Richard, (and maybe John) were raised as Catholics.

There are several other 1940 references to Richard in the Fleetwood papers.

John. a married man born April 26, "1886", can be found on the 1939 Register at 62 Shaftesbury Street, Newport. FindMyPast have transcribed the surname as "Clarcy" - I don't know if Ancestry have done something similar. Wife is Catherine, born June 30, 1891. There are then two closed entries, which potentially could be children.

"Could be a co-incidence" BUT, a John CLANCY married a Catherine Desmond in the Newport District of Monmouthshire in Q3 1918. If John was still serving then the entry in the Groom's Occupation column of the Marriage Certificate may tell you more - should be rank and regiment\corps as a minimum, but sometimes just says soldier or sailor. The certificate should also give his fathers' name, (if known), his occupation and if still alive.

Looks likely that the couple had three sons, the first, James T, in Q1 1920. Father John may well be out of the armed forces by then, but if not then fathers' occupation on the birth certificate may contain some useful information.

Richard, born 21st July 1885, was recorded living at 15 Willow Street, Fleetwood, on the 1939 Register.

Hope that is not a red herring,

The other Peter

[peter Hearn]

Hi Peter ,That is fantastic I was born in 15 Willow St Fleetwood, Ive known it as my Grandmothers house , She passed away there in1974,  Richard was my Grandfather who sadly I never met, the 2 Daughters are my Mother Margaret Clancy & her Sister Kathleen, my Mother became a Hearn & Kathleen became a Beeston,                                                                               Would it be ok to copy this info to show family ? I am amazed at how you have managed to find all this and very grateful for your help and advice.

Huge Thank You Peter

Peter hearn

[peter Hearn]

Hi Peter,

My grandmother's Sister Winnie actually worked for the Fleetwood Chronicle,

Thank You

Peter Hearn

[PRC]

3 hours ago, peter Hearn said:

Would it be ok to copy this info to show family ?

My text responses you can certainly copy. While there is copyright on those images there is certain academic and personal study exemptions which would probably apply – and which I’m relying on to cover attaching the bare minimum of the documents in trying to help. You’d always be advised to refer to the Terms and Conditions of the sources – although of course as you now know where they are there is nothing to stop you going there and downloading themselves for personal study

Unless there is a bit of journalistic licence at play, 55 years from an article dated 3rd August 1945 would take you back to roughly August 1894 to August 1895. That probably ties in with the Margaret Clancy whose death was recorded in the Newport District in Q4 1894. The children may have been taken in after she died or before it if her health had deteriorated to a state where she could no longer look after them.

It’s looking likely that the Richard you are interested in was the birth registered  in the Newport District. Either his birth certificate, his marriage certificate of Johns’ marriage certificate should give you their fathers’ name and occupation. With that you can then make a call as to whether to go for the birth certificates for either John CLANCY, (Q3 1884) or Edward John CLANCY (Q4 1880) whose were registered in the Newport District – they are the only contenders between 1879 – 1889. I cannot see any potential CLANCEY’s.

Could you be worthwhile checking out the parish records on the likes of Ancestry if you have access – I know over the years other forum members have been able to turn up marriage register entries. Unfortunately neither familysearch or freereg seem to have anything for a possible baptism for either of them. However if they were raised Catholic its worth knowing that register entries of the period will latinize the names – John will be Johannes for instance.

3 hours ago, peter Hearn said:

Richard was my Grandfather who sadly I never met

The newspaper article from 1945 refers to him being sent to the Royal Navy when he was very young. I suspect that was one of the Naval Schools for orphans, and I certainly can’t find a Royal Navy enlistment as a rating for him.

The document that would seem to give you most bang for your buck is the wedding certificate for John – if you are satisfied the right wedding has been identified. Not only will it hopefully give you fathers’ name, occupation and whether still alive, it will also tell you whether John was then serving and it will give you another age to put in the mix. If John was still serving it’s likely the couple didn’t set up household together at that point. However it may give you some addresses for the bride and groom prior to marriage that will be worthwhile trying to find the Absent Voter list entry for in 1918 & 1919.

3 hours ago, peter Hearn said:

My grandmother's Sister Winnie actually worked for the Fleetwood Chronicle,

May well explain how the article got published

Hope that will help you find the Great War service of John, and if nothing else it shows there is a long running desire in the family to track him down !

Cheers,
Peter

[charlie962]

On 11/09/2021 at 23:47, PRC said:

I suspect John CLANCEY, the Somerset Militiaman who joined the RFA on the 20th October 1902 and the 28 year old Acting Bombardier John CLANCY recorded at Kirkee, India  with the 82nd Battery, Royal Field Artillery on the 1911 Census of England & Wales, (taken 2nd April 1911) are one and the same man.

Whatever the split was he'd opted for, a 12 year enlistment would mean he was liable for service in August 1914 at the outbreak of the war, while a 21 year commitment would have seen him in the colours anyway. A 12 year man whilst in the colours could have his term extended by another 12 months in wartime, so the earliest John could walk away from the Army would be October 1915.

If he stayed with the 82nd Battery he would have gone with the Expeditionary Force to Mesopotamia in November 1914, and if he was very, very unlucky he would have still been with them when the force became besiged at Kut-el-Almara at the end of 1915 and were finally forced to surrender on April 29th 1916 as a result of the starvation and illness brought about by the siege. It is generally estimated that of the European soldiers who surrendered to the Turks, 75% of the other ranks did not survive captivity. However the records of the International Red Cross do not appear to have him recorded under either surname spelling as a prisoner in any part of the campaign.

Even if he had stayed in India as part of the Garrison he would have qualified for at least one Medal, the British War Medal, and so there should be a Medal Index Card, (MiC). But of the four MiC's for John CLANCY's, three have a middle initial, while the fourth, a Wheeler Corporal. appears to be a Territorial Force man, rather than in the Regular Army. He went to France at the start of October 1915 so all in all unlikely to be the same individual.

But there is only one MiC for a John CLANCEY and he only qualified for the Victory Medal and British War Medal, so did not serve in a Theatre of War until on or after the 1st January 1916.

So all a bit of a mess unless I'm missing something. Random spellings of surname and ages that don't quite tie up. Your relative could have been home service only in the UK, (so no MiC), or was discharged early from his pre-war engagement, (health \ discipline). If he didn't volunteer in 1914/15, (and a health \ discipline issue could have prevented that), then conscription from 1916 could have seen him posted to any unit.

Peter, great research as usual. I can add a couple of extra points:

1)    The Medal Card for John Clancey that has only a BWM/VM you refer to above, quotes an RFA Service number of 27638.

There isn't a surviving service record for him but the next number, 27639, was issued to a John LEWIS who attested 16/10/1902 and joined the RFA Depot at Seaforth 20/10/1902, the day that the Somerset Militiaman John CLANCEY joined the RFA. Too much of a coincidence. So I suggest this confirms 27638 is our man. Lewis joined on a 3/9 basis but his career was cut short so little else useful to draw from his record.

2)    I've had a look at my listings for 82nd Bty RFA men at Kut and he is not on them. I have previously found that there were swaps between 82nd and 63rd Btys so I've looked there as well but nothing. I will check a bit more. However the MIC suggesting he did not go to an overseas theatre until after 1/1/1916 would seem to rule him out as a Kut man. (and see point 4 below)

3)  27638 John Clancey subsequently transferred to the Labour Corps as 510176

Near numbers suggest this number was issued in France c 10/2/1918 and the men were transferred 'for the Benefit of the Service' to an Area Employment Company- eg 861 in a couple of cases but may not be same coy for Clancey.

4) 27638 John Clancey actually landed in France 11/9/14. I suspect he was mobilised from the Reserve in UK. As you said he was just caught by the tail end of his service commitment but since he started on a 3/9 basis he must have extended the colour 'bit'. He is shown as a Driver with the 38th Brigade RFA in the 1914 Star Roll.  Note you will find him as John CLANEY 27638 in the Medal Roll and separateMIC for that '14 Star. There is no mention on the Roll of any clasp entitlement for him?

5) That 14 Star MIC very helpfully shows him claiming the Star with an address of 7, Spring Street, Cwmbran, Near Newport,Monmouthshire.

6) He has 3 pension cards on Fold3 courtesy Western FrontAssociation. Married, born 1884. Discharged 11/3/19. They show his address as 8 The Beeches, Woodside Rd, Cwmbran, Mon

Charlie

Edit- the 38 Brigade RFA War Diary is here at Discovery National Archives and is free to download if you register. It is highly unlikely that Clancey will be named but it will give the overall picture for those early days

Edited 13 September , 2021 by charlie962

[peter Hearn]

Thank You once again Peter, I am indebted to you, I am so impressed with your skill at this, I am just a novice starting out,

I really appreciate your help,

Peter Hearn

[peter Hearn]

Hi Charlie962,

Thank you for this info, I appreciate you input as well, I see there are very skilled and knowledgeable people on this site, all have been a great help to me.

once again

Thank You all

Peter Hearn

[charlie962]

Peter Hearn

Do those Cwmbran addresses mean anything to you?

The Woodside Rd one seems c 1922 and the Spring Street c1919

Charlie

[peter Hearn]

Hi Charlie, at this moment no I am not aware of any family there, but as I have learnt you never know, 

Hopefully there are family there, I managed to find some family on my Fathers side I never knew about which was really nice, I have been in contact with them and all is good, so I will try and have a look at my mothers side in the addresses you have provided and see what becomes of it.

Thank You once again for your help

Peter Hearn

[PRC]

55 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

1)    The Medal Card for John Clancey that has only a BWM/VM you refer to above, quotes an RFA Service number of 27638.

There isn't a surviving service record for him but the next number, 27639, was issued to a John LEWIS who attested 16/10/1902 and joined the RFA Depot at Seaforth 20/10/1902, the day that the Somerset Militiaman John CLANCEY joined the RFA. Too much of a coincidence. So I suggest this confirms 27638 is our man. Lewis joined on a 3/9 basis but his career was cut short so little else useful to draw from his record.

Fantastic Charlie.

27639 John Lewis enlisted at Merthyr Tydfil.

There are also surviving serving records for 27641 Thomas Evans who also attested at Merthyr Tydfil on the 16th October 1902 on a 3 and 9 basis. He too went to the Seaforth Depot for his basic training before being posted to 147th Battery on the 5th October 1903. He transferred to the Army Reserve, Section B, on the 16th October 1905, all of his service having been in the UK. For some reason he was not mobilised at Preston until the 1st November 1914, so in theory after his twelve years were up. He was discharged on the 5th November 1915, having completed his term of engagement.

And the papers of 27629 William Robert Clift, recruited at Jersey aged 15 on the 11th October 1902 for 12 years in the colours, may reflect a pre-war Army career not too dissimilar to John Clancy.
17/10/02 Seaforth Depot.
24/09/03 147th Battery
02/04/04 148th Battery
18/07/05 No.6 Depot
23/01/06 122nd Battery
06/12/07 Sailed for India. Posted 44 Battery
22/04/10 AC 10 (probably Ammunition Column 10th Brigade).
02/04/11 1911 Census - at the RFA Depot at Kirkee.
10/04/11 82nd Battery.By the 5th October 1911 was serving with the 82nd Battery as he had an accident to his face while at Kirkee which required a Court of Inquiry to sit.
Served with 82nd Battery then 10th Brigade Staff RFA according to his Casualty Form -Active Service for the initial wartime period.
19/09/14 HQ 10 (probably 10th Brigade HQ).
Subsequently moved to Mesoptamia.
He missed out on the siege of Kut as was on his way to India on the 3rd November 1915 having completed 13 years of service. He remained at a Depot in India until April 1916, when he took the bounty on offer to continue serving.

Cheers,
The other Peter

[PRC]

2 hours ago, charlie962 said:

5) That 14 Star MIC very helpfully shows him claiming the Star with an address of 7, Spring Street, Cwmbran, Near Newport,Monmouthshire.

I believe Johns’ wife was Catherine Desmond, who according to the 1939 Register was born June 30, 1891. On the 1911 Census of England & Wales the occupants of 7 Spring Street, Cwmbran are the Desmond family, including the unmarried 23 year old daughter “Kate” Desmond. It seems John may not have been the only one giving a dodgy date of birth to the 1939 Register takers

Cheers,
Peter

[charlie962]

On 13/09/2021 at 23:50, PRC said:

I believe Johns’ wife was Catherine Desmond, who according to the 1939 Register was born June 30, 1891. On the 1911 Census of England & Wales the occupants of 7 Spring Street, Cwmbran are the Desmond family, including the unmarried 23 year old daughter “Kate” Desmond. It seems John may not have been the only one giving a dodgy date of birth to the 1939 Register takers

That is important confirmation.

Charlie

[peter Hearn]

Hi Charlie

I am so amazed at how you and Peter can find out all this info,

Thank You Both for your help & time 

Peter hearn