travers61 Posted 21 October , 2021 Share Posted 21 October , 2021 If the answer is not in the Divisons history book, then it may be in this 2017 book by James Roberts, or he may know the answer. Killer butterflies: combat, pyschology and morale in the British 19th (Western) Division 1915-18 https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/review-of-killer-butterflies/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
travers61 Posted 21 October , 2021 Share Posted 21 October , 2021 (edited) On 06/09/2021 at 11:55, HERITAGE PLUS said: From 'Badges of Kitchener's Army' by David Bilton (2018). Maj.General Bridges is credited with the Butterfly, used by the 19th Division, thought to represent the amount of moving that the Division did. This old thread may be of interest to you. https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/176232-19th-western-division/ Dave Maj General Bridges was a artist. Bridges devoted his retirement to painting and writing. He published several books: Alarms and excursions: reminiscences of a soldier (Longmans & Co, London, 1938) compiler, Word from England: an anthology of prose and poetry (English Universities Press, London, 1940) Friedrich Adam Julius von Bernhardi, Cavalry in war and peace translated from the German by Major George Tom Molesworth Bridges (Hugh Rees, London, 1910). He had also studied at the Slade School of Fine Art, and was an accomplished painter. He held many one-man exhibitions in Adelaide and London where his oils and watercolours were sold. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Bridges Travers Edited 21 October , 2021 by travers61 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
travers61 Posted 21 October , 2021 Share Posted 21 October , 2021 The book Badges of Kitchener's Army' by David Bilton (2018) credits Lt-Gen Sir Tom Bridges as the designer of the badge. He was GOC 19th Div 1915-1917 and in later life at least was an acomplished artist. Bridges devoted his retirement to painting and writing. He published several books: Alarms and excursions: reminiscences of a soldier (Longmans & Co, London, 1938), compiler, Word from England: an anthology of prose and poetry (English Universities Press, London, 1940), and Friedrich Adam Julius von Bernhardi, Cavalry in war and peace translated from the German by Major George Tom Molesworth Bridges (Hugh Rees, London, 1910). He had also studied at the Slade School of Fine Art, and was an accomplished painter. He held many one-man exhibitions in Adelaide and London where his oils and watercolours were sold. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Bridges Travers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 21 October , 2021 Share Posted 21 October , 2021 There is a duplication of this topic running simultaneously in a thread in the uniforms and insignia section, perhaps they could profitably be merged? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Michelle Young Posted 21 October , 2021 Admin Share Posted 21 October , 2021 I have merged the two threads about the 19th Division. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaureenE Posted 22 October , 2021 Share Posted 22 October , 2021 In Bridges's autobiography he doesn't give a reason, but perhaps the implication is that the butterfly was chosen to be different, and to stand out from the "medley of strange and often ferocious effigies" chosen by other Divisions. Perhaps the notion of "killer butterflies" ( later chosen as a book title by Roberts, as mentioned above) appealed. https://archive.org/details/alarmsexcursions0000brid/page/140/mode/2up?q=butterfly from Alarms & Excursions : Reminiscences of a Soldier by Lieut.-Gen. Sir Tom Bridges. 1938. Archive.org Books to Borrow/Lending Library. Bridges was the man who had a pet lion as mascot for the 19th Division, and when Bridges lost his leg in 1917, he instructed that his leg be fed to the lion. Maureen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Posted 22 October , 2021 Share Posted 22 October , 2021 Hi all, thanks for all the help. Having consulted the 19th divisional history, I've discovered this: 'Once again the "Butterflies" were to live up to their reputation for flitting from place to place. the reason was significant: most divisions were more highly trained than others, and as a consequence their successes were more frequent. the 19th Division was always looked upon as a fine fighting unit, and was amongst those divisions which were charged about from one part of the line to another, where the fighting was heaviest, or a stubborn defence, or an intrepid advance necessary' (Wyrall, The History of the 19th Division, p. 123). This strikes me as a postwar justification and that Bridges, as MaureenE identified, chose the butterfly so as to 'stand out'. Anyway, thank you again for all your help, I really appreciate it. Josh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interested Posted 22 October , 2021 Share Posted 22 October , 2021 Hi Poona Guard. If it were down to me I'd say "Yes" to using the shoulder tab photo, but unfortunately I can't remember where it came from so it's provenance might get you into copyright trouble. It was probably in a job lot of memorabilia up for sale in the internet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 22 October , 2021 Share Posted 22 October , 2021 5 hours ago, MaureenE said: In Bridges's autobiography he doesn't give a reason, but perhaps the implication is that the butterfly was chosen to be different, and to stand out from the "medley of strange and often ferocious effigies" chosen by other Divisions. Perhaps the notion of "killer butterflies" ( later chosen as a book title by Roberts, as mentioned above) appealed. https://archive.org/details/alarmsexcursions0000brid/page/140/mode/2up?q=butterfly from Alarms & Excursions : Reminiscences of a Soldier by Lieut.-Gen. Sir Tom Bridges. 1938. Archive.org Books to Borrow/Lending Library. Bridges was the man who had a pet lion as mascot for the 19th Division, and when Bridges lost his leg in 1917, he instructed that his leg be fed to the lion. Maureen He seems quite the character. Was he connected at all to the Tom Bridges who as a cavalry officer led the exhausted remnants of two infantry battalions out of St Quentin in 1914 by playing a penny whistle and some biscuit tin type drums? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Michelle Young Posted 22 October , 2021 Admin Share Posted 22 October , 2021 I know that we should take Wiki with a pinch of salt at times, but…. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Bridges Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaureenE Posted 22 October , 2021 Share Posted 22 October , 2021 1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said: He seems quite the character. Was he connected at all to the Tom Bridges who as a cavalry officer led the exhausted remnants of two infantry battalions out of St Quentin in 1914 by playing a penny whistle and some biscuit tin type drums? The same person. His forceful action at St.Quentin resulted in the court-marshal and cashiering of two colonels, see "The Retreat from Mons with 2nd Battalion RDF" dublin-fusiliers.com) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 22 October , 2021 Share Posted 22 October , 2021 1 hour ago, MaureenE said: The same person. His forceful action at St.Quentin resulted in the court-marshal and cashiering of two colonels, see "The Retreat from Mons with 2nd Battalion RDF" dublin-fusiliers.com) Thank you, I did think it was him, but then doubted for a moment that he reached Divisional command so swiftly. Best wishes… Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wainfleet Posted 2 November , 2021 Share Posted 2 November , 2021 On 22/10/2021 at 09:25, Interested said: Hi Poona Guard. If it were down to me I'd say "Yes" to using the shoulder tab photo, but unfortunately I can't remember where it came from so it's provenance might get you into copyright trouble. It was probably in a job lot of memorabilia up for sale in the internet. It's mine, I posted that photo on here several years ago. Poona Guard you are welcome to use it, or PM me if you want a better photo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 2 November , 2021 Share Posted 2 November , 2021 @poona guard: just in case you are not being alerted to threads in which you participated, I know you will be pleased to receive the sanction above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jay dubaya Posted 19 November , 2021 Share Posted 19 November , 2021 Sorting through a few files this evening and found this... doesn't answer the question though... a butterfly collector? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Florent Posted 3 January , 2022 Share Posted 3 January , 2022 (edited) Hello, Very interesting discussion as I was also looking for this butterfly sign origin these last weeks. I downloaded a lot 19th Division files on the NA site, and for now , I found only the same page of Jay, on May 1918 file cover with the Butterfly sign. For information, I enclose a photo of my original 19th Division tunic, with 2 differents badges, I guess one generic for the Division (the full red one) on left arm , the other for the Brigade (here RFA I guess, as the tunic is for a RFA sergeant (identified). Thanks, and Best wishes for all. Edited 3 January , 2022 by Florent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 3 January , 2022 Share Posted 3 January , 2022 1 hour ago, Florent said: Hello, Very interesting discussion as I was also looking for this butterfly sign origin these last weeks. I downloaded a lot 19th Division files on the NA site, and for now , I found only the same page of Jay, on May 1918 file cover with the Butterfly sign. For information, I enclose a photo of my original 19th Division tunic, with 2 differents badges, I guess one generic for the Division (the full red one) on left arm , the other for the Brigade (here RFA I guess, as the tunic is for a RFA sergeant (identified). Thanks, and Best wishes for all. Thank you Florent, it is especially interesting to see the differently coloured butterflies, the variation is so subtle you could easily miss it if not looking closely. I imagine that forum member @poona guardwill be interested to see the excellent colour photographs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poona guard Posted 3 January , 2022 Author Share Posted 3 January , 2022 Absolutely fascinated and thank you Wainfleet. Brilliant tunic Laurent. Is the jacket dated and/or named. Can I use the photographs in a future book please - British Corps Badges 1914-1918, volume 4 in the series. Happy New Year to everyone. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wainfleet Posted 3 January , 2022 Share Posted 3 January , 2022 8 hours ago, Florent said: Hello, Very interesting discussion as I was also looking for this butterfly sign origin these last weeks. I downloaded a lot 19th Division files on the NA site, and for now , I found only the same page of Jay, on May 1918 file cover with the Butterfly sign. For information, I enclose a photo of my original 19th Division tunic, with 2 differents badges, I guess one generic for the Division (the full red one) on left arm , the other for the Brigade (here RFA I guess, as the tunic is for a RFA sergeant (identified). Thanks, and Best wishes for all. This tunic used to be mine. I recognise the different colour divisional signs. A friend bought it in the early 1980s, I got it from him and sold it when I sold off my first WW1 collection in about 1987. I remember that it had a wound stripe made from an American rank bar, which fits as the Division were training US troops at the time. Nice to see this again after so many years, a good honest tunic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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