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Remembered Today:

Origin of 19th (Western) Division insignia?


poona guard

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On 06/09/2021 at 11:55, HERITAGE PLUS said:

From 'Badges of Kitchener's Army' by David Bilton (2018).

Maj.General Bridges is credited with the Butterfly, used by the 19th Division, thought to represent the amount of moving that the Division did.

This old thread may be of interest to you.

https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/176232-19th-western-division/

Dave

Maj General Bridges was a artist.

Bridges devoted his retirement to painting and writing. He published several books:

Alarms and excursions: reminiscences of a soldier (Longmans & Co, London, 1938)

compiler, Word from England: an anthology of prose and poetry (English Universities Press, London, 1940)

Friedrich Adam Julius von Bernhardi, Cavalry in war and peace translated from the German by Major George Tom Molesworth Bridges (Hugh Rees, London, 1910). 

He had also studied at the Slade School of Fine Art, and was an accomplished painter. He held many one-man exhibitions in Adelaide and London where his oils and watercolours were sold.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Bridges

 

Travers

Edited by travers61
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The book Badges of Kitchener's Army' by David Bilton (2018) credits Lt-Gen Sir Tom Bridges as the designer of the badge. He was GOC 19th Div 1915-1917 and in later life at least was an acomplished artist.

Bridges devoted his retirement to painting and writing. He published several books:   Alarms and excursions: reminiscences of a soldier (Longmans & Co, London, 1938), compiler, Word from England: an anthology of prose and poetry (English Universities Press, London, 1940), and Friedrich Adam Julius von Bernhardi, Cavalry in war and peace translated from the German by Major George Tom Molesworth Bridges (Hugh Rees, London, 1910). He had also studied at the Slade School of Fine Art, and was an accomplished painter. He held many one-man exhibitions in Adelaide and London where his oils and watercolours were sold.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Bridges

 

Travers

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There is a duplication of this topic running simultaneously in a thread in the uniforms and insignia section, perhaps they could profitably be merged?

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  • Admin

I have merged the two threads about the 19th Division. 

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In Bridges's autobiography he doesn't give a reason, but perhaps the implication is that the butterfly was chosen to be different, and to stand out from the "medley of strange and often ferocious effigies" chosen by other Divisions.  Perhaps the notion of "killer butterflies"  ( later chosen  as a book title by Roberts, as mentioned above) appealed.

https://archive.org/details/alarmsexcursions0000brid/page/140/mode/2up?q=butterfly

from Alarms & Excursions : Reminiscences of a Soldier by Lieut.-Gen. Sir Tom Bridges. 1938. Archive.org Books to Borrow/Lending Library.

Bridges was the man who had a pet lion as mascot for the 19th Division, and when Bridges lost his leg in 1917, he instructed that his leg be fed to the lion.

Maureen

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Hi all, thanks for all the help. Having consulted the 19th divisional history, I've discovered this:

'Once again the "Butterflies" were to live up to their reputation for flitting from place to place. the reason was significant: most divisions were more highly trained than others, and as a consequence their successes were more frequent. the 19th Division was always looked upon as a fine fighting unit, and was amongst those divisions which were charged about from one part of the line to another, where the fighting was heaviest, or a stubborn defence, or an intrepid advance necessary' (Wyrall, The History of the 19th Division, p. 123).

This strikes me as a postwar justification and that Bridges, as MaureenE identified, chose the butterfly so as to 'stand out'. Anyway, thank you again for all your help, I really appreciate it.

Josh

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Hi Poona Guard.

If it were down to me I'd say "Yes" to using the shoulder tab photo, but unfortunately I can't remember where it came from so it's provenance might get you into copyright trouble.

It was probably in a job lot of memorabilia up for sale in the internet.

 

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5 hours ago, MaureenE said:

In Bridges's autobiography he doesn't give a reason, but perhaps the implication is that the butterfly was chosen to be different, and to stand out from the "medley of strange and often ferocious effigies" chosen by other Divisions.  Perhaps the notion of "killer butterflies"  ( later chosen  as a book title by Roberts, as mentioned above) appealed.

https://archive.org/details/alarmsexcursions0000brid/page/140/mode/2up?q=butterfly

from Alarms & Excursions : Reminiscences of a Soldier by Lieut.-Gen. Sir Tom Bridges. 1938. Archive.org Books to Borrow/Lending Library.

Bridges was the man who had a pet lion as mascot for the 19th Division, and when Bridges lost his leg in 1917, he instructed that his leg be fed to the lion.

Maureen

He seems quite the character.  Was he connected at all to the Tom Bridges who as a cavalry officer led the exhausted remnants of two infantry battalions out of St Quentin in 1914 by playing a penny whistle and some biscuit tin type drums? 

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1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said:

He seems quite the character.  Was he connected at all to the Tom Bridges who as a cavalry officer led the exhausted remnants of two infantry battalions out of St Quentin in 1914 by playing a penny whistle and some biscuit tin type drums? 

The same person. His forceful action at St.Quentin  resulted in the court-marshal and cashiering of two colonels, see  "The Retreat from Mons with 2nd Battalion RDF"  dublin-fusiliers.com)

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1 hour ago, MaureenE said:

The same person. His forceful action at St.Quentin  resulted in the court-marshal and cashiering of two colonels, see  "The Retreat from Mons with 2nd Battalion RDF"  dublin-fusiliers.com)

Thank you, I did think it was him, but then doubted for a moment that he reached Divisional command so swiftly.

Best wishes…

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 22/10/2021 at 09:25, Interested said:

Hi Poona Guard.

If it were down to me I'd say "Yes" to using the shoulder tab photo, but unfortunately I can't remember where it came from so it's provenance might get you into copyright trouble.

It was probably in a job lot of memorabilia up for sale in the internet.

 

It's mine, I posted that photo on here several years ago. Poona Guard you are welcome to use it, or PM me if you want a better photo.

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@poona guard: just in case you are not being alerted to threads in which you participated, I know you will be pleased to receive the sanction above. 

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  • 3 weeks later...

Sorting through a few files this evening and found this... doesn't answer the question though... a butterfly collector?

43849_2057_0-00001.jpg.b3356179fe40db43305249e261f37a93.jpg

 

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  • 1 month later...

Hello,

Very interesting discussion as I was also looking for this butterfly sign origin these last weeks.

I downloaded a lot 19th Division files on the NA site, and for now , I found only the same page of Jay, on May 1918 file cover with the Butterfly sign.

For information, I enclose a photo of  my original 19th Division tunic, with 2 differents badges, I guess one generic for the Division (the full red one) on left arm , the other for the Brigade (here RFA I guess, as the tunic is for a RFA sergeant (identified).

Thanks, and Best wishes for all.

 

HPIM0297.JPG.a4f219355f5c5598d9b6b6c16cb7c4a4.JPG

HPIM0296.JPG.8641909eac02e5a7fbbd2ecb1f117b6e.JPG

 

Edited by Florent
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1 hour ago, Florent said:

Hello,

Very interesting discussion as I was also looking for this butterfly sign origin these last weeks.

I downloaded a lot 19th Division files on the NA site, and for now , I found only the same page of Jay, on May 1918 file cover with the Butterfly sign.

For information, I enclose a photo of  my original 19th Division tunic, with 2 differents badges, I guess one generic for the Division (the full red one) on left arm , the other for the Brigade (here RFA I guess, as the tunic is for a RFA sergeant (identified).

Thanks, and Best wishes for all.

 

HPIM0297.JPG.a4f219355f5c5598d9b6b6c16cb7c4a4.JPG

HPIM0296.JPG.8641909eac02e5a7fbbd2ecb1f117b6e.JPG

 

Thank you Florent, it is especially interesting to see the differently coloured butterflies, the variation is so subtle you could easily miss it if not looking closely.  I imagine that forum member @poona guardwill be interested to see the excellent colour photographs.

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Absolutely fascinated and thank you Wainfleet. Brilliant tunic Laurent. Is the jacket dated and/or named. Can I use the photographs in a future book please - British Corps Badges 1914-1918, volume 4 in the series.

Happy New Year to everyone.

Dave

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8 hours ago, Florent said:

Hello,

Very interesting discussion as I was also looking for this butterfly sign origin these last weeks.

I downloaded a lot 19th Division files on the NA site, and for now , I found only the same page of Jay, on May 1918 file cover with the Butterfly sign.

For information, I enclose a photo of  my original 19th Division tunic, with 2 differents badges, I guess one generic for the Division (the full red one) on left arm , the other for the Brigade (here RFA I guess, as the tunic is for a RFA sergeant (identified).

Thanks, and Best wishes for all.

 

HPIM0297.JPG.a4f219355f5c5598d9b6b6c16cb7c4a4.JPG

HPIM0296.JPG.8641909eac02e5a7fbbd2ecb1f117b6e.JPG

 

This tunic used to be mine. I recognise the different colour divisional signs. A friend bought it in the early 1980s, I got it from him and sold it when I sold off my first WW1 collection in about 1987. I remember that it had a wound stripe made from an American rank bar, which fits as the Division were training US troops at the time. Nice to see this again after so many years, a good honest tunic.

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