poona guard Posted 6 September , 2021 Share Posted 6 September , 2021 Does anyone have concrete evidence as to why it was the butterfly division? What was the origin of the sign? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jay dubaya Posted 6 September , 2021 Share Posted 6 September , 2021 Taken from ‘Divisional and Other Signs’ collected and illustrated by V. Wheeler-Holohan, Captain 12th London Rgt. Printed 1920. The division had one of the best known signs in the BEF - the butterfly. The designs varied a lot but generally the butterfly was of the ‘peacock’ variety with eyes on its wings. It has no history, but was adopted before the Somme, 1916, by Major-General GMT Bridges who was then commanding the division. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HERITAGE PLUS Posted 6 September , 2021 Share Posted 6 September , 2021 (edited) From 'Badges of Kitchener's Army' by David Bilton (2018). Maj.General Bridges is credited with the Butterfly, used by the 19th Division, thought to represent the amount of moving that the Division did. This old thread may be of interest to you. https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/176232-19th-western-division/ Dave Edited 6 September , 2021 by HERITAGE PLUS Added info Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Posted 6 September , 2021 Share Posted 6 September , 2021 I'm looking for information on the origin of the 19th (Western) Divisions 'butterfly' patch/insignia, which was, from what I understand, awarded to single units for exceptional feats of arms. I've heard that it was butterfly because the division was often moved around, depending on where they were needed. Is this true and if so, does anyone have any evidence for it? Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Michelle Young Posted 6 September , 2021 Admin Share Posted 6 September , 2021 Welcome to the forum. Oddly enough, this question was raised earlier Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poona guard Posted 6 September , 2021 Author Share Posted 6 September , 2021 Can you direct me to the thread? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Michelle Young Posted 6 September , 2021 Admin Share Posted 6 September , 2021 Josh asked a question about the 19th Division, I replied with a link to the thread by Poona guard and Poona guard asked where the thread is. Strange. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jay dubaya Posted 6 September , 2021 Share Posted 6 September , 2021 1 hour ago, poona guard said: Can you direct me to the thread? You started it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poona guard Posted 6 September , 2021 Author Share Posted 6 September , 2021 A fellow man from Hull I suspect by your location. I meant the previous thread there had been on the subject. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jay dubaya Posted 6 September , 2021 Share Posted 6 September , 2021 1 hour ago, poona guard said: A fellow man from Hull I suspect by your location. I meant the previous thread there had been on the subject. Not quite... but I am a Yorkshire man living in exile. The thread referred to by Michelle was the one you started earlier today and linked above Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poona guard Posted 6 September , 2021 Author Share Posted 6 September , 2021 Okay. New to this game. But the Land of Green Ginger is in Hull. Which part of Yorkshire? Got any photos of terriers wearing cloth badges? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jay dubaya Posted 8 September , 2021 Share Posted 8 September , 2021 On 06/09/2021 at 21:56, poona guard said: Okay. New to this game. But the Land of Green Ginger is in Hull. Which part of Yorkshire? Got any photos of terriers wearing cloth badges? The land of green ginger is my workshop in the back garden where once upon a time we produced green ginger beer... I’m a Sheffield lad born and bred, still have family there but have lived in Pembrokeshire for the last 30 years. Sadly no photos to share... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mebu Posted 8 September , 2021 Share Posted 8 September , 2021 It is likely that the emblem was designed/thought up at the establishment of the division. Any comments on being moved around can only have been made later. Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poona guard Posted 8 September , 2021 Author Share Posted 8 September , 2021 Possibly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interested Posted 8 September , 2021 Share Posted 8 September , 2021 Perhaps these snaps from my tab card collection might help: 58_Front.pdf 58_Back.pdf I meant to add that I read somewhere that the GOC was a lepidopterist, but don't ask me where. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interested Posted 8 September , 2021 Share Posted 8 September , 2021 Here's a shoulder tab, I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Posted 9 September , 2021 Share Posted 9 September , 2021 13 hours ago, Interested said: Perhaps these snaps from my tab card collection might help: 58_Front.pdf 37.18 kB · 5 downloads 58_Back.pdf 55.4 kB · 3 downloads I meant to add that I read somewhere that the GOC was a lepidopterist, but don't ask me where. Hi Interested, that's an interesting point and one I'd not thought of. Would make sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Posted 9 September , 2021 Share Posted 9 September , 2021 15 hours ago, mebu said: It is likely that the emblem was designed/thought up at the establishment of the division. Any comments on being moved around can only have been made later. Peter Yes, you have a good point Peter, although given that most insignia/emblems were designed by the GOC or divisional staff, wouldn't there'd be some meaning behind their decision to chose the butterfly? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Posted 9 September , 2021 Share Posted 9 September , 2021 On 06/09/2021 at 15:30, Michelle Young said: Welcome to the forum. Oddly enough, this question was raised earlier Thanks Michelle for this. It's frustrating though as I actually have both those books and neither has evidence for it, although I guess that's FWW insignia for you. I've also seen it claimed that the sign was supposed to be an allusion to patriotism, the beauty of life, fleeting death and unfulfilled futures. However, I think this is reaching somewhat... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Posted 9 September , 2021 Share Posted 9 September , 2021 13 hours ago, Interested said: Perhaps these snaps from my tab card collection might help: 58_Front.pdf 37.18 kB · 5 downloads 58_Back.pdf 55.4 kB · 3 downloads I meant to add that I read somewhere that the GOC was a lepidopterist, but don't ask me where. These photos are supber, thank you Interested Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mebu Posted 9 September , 2021 Share Posted 9 September , 2021 Josh, I do not know why the butterfly was chosen, maybe nobody does/did except the GOC. However it is a fact that it was chosen before the Division did any travelling, not after they had moved around. It is also unlikely that the 19th did any more travelling around than any other Division. Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poona guard Posted 20 October , 2021 Author Share Posted 20 October , 2021 Thank you interested for the badge photo. Can I use it in a book? Please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 20 October , 2021 Share Posted 20 October , 2021 (edited) Most Division’s have a limited edition history published after the war. If there’s one for 19th Inf Div perhaps there’ll be an explanation mentioned within it. NB. There was - see below. Edited 20 October , 2021 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Posted 21 October , 2021 Share Posted 21 October , 2021 19 hours ago, FROGSMILE said: Most Division’s have a limited edition history published after the war. If there’s one for 19th Inf Div perhaps there’ll be an explanation mentioned within it. NB. There was - see below. Hi FROGSMILE, it's a good suggestion, thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 21 October , 2021 Share Posted 21 October , 2021 15 minutes ago, Josh said: Hi FROGSMILE, it's a good suggestion, thanks As the sign was apparently the personal choice of the GOC (a common provenance for other such signs by many accounts) then I think your answer is more likely to be discovered via a study of the background pertaining to the general officer concerned. It wouldn’t surprise me in the least if the suggestion that he was a lepidopterist turns out to be true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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