Germans causing Allies to retreat by giving order to "retire" in English

[A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy]

In the WD of the 164^th Brigade (WO 95/2920/1) for August 1916 there is a document entitled General Notes and Lessons Learnt from Operations 8/9^th August, 1916, the authorship of which is not clear, but it includes the following one line statement:

The word RETIRE must be eliminated from vocabulary.

I thought at first that this was enjoining troops never to withdraw in any circumstances, which, if adopted as a general precept, would clearly have been tactical madness. However, the intention behind the above precept is more fully explained in another document which was signed by Major General H.S. Jeudwine on 21 August 1916, and is to be found in a WD of the 55^th Division (WO 95/2900/2). The document is entitled Notes from Recent Operations, and includes the following:

The word “Retire” is NEVER to be used in any circumstances. It has often been used by the enemy to deceive our men, and they should know that if they hear the word used it is not an order given by their own Commanders. Instead troops may be ordered to move to such and such a place or trench.

My grandfather was present with the 2/5^th LF at the engagement on 8/9August, but his company was in reserve and therefore not directly involved in the attack, though they too suffered heavy losses. He does not in his diary mention anything about confusion being caused by the Germans purporting to give the order to “Retire”, nor can I see anything about that in the various WDs I have read regarding this engagement, whether at Divisional, Brigade, or Battalion level, apart from in the two documents mentioned above.

I had thought that I had posted about this before, and that someone had replied suggesting that men might report that they heard the cry “Retire” to justify not gaining their objectives, but I can’t find that exchange, and maybe imagined it. Apologies if I am repeating myself, and should rather have tagged this comment onto an earlier thread.

My reason for posting now is that I have begun to read Tilsley’s Other Ranks, the 2019 edition, and find that, right at the beginning, when Bradshaw arrives at the front, the company commander welcomes the new recruits with a homily which includes an account of the battalion’s involvement in the attack on Guillemont on 8 August 1916. He says of the events as they unfolded during the attack:

In the confusion that followed, an unauthorized order was passed along to retreat, so we had over two hundred casualties without gaining anything. I am ordered to tell you that under no circumstances whatsoever must there be a repetition of that unordered retreat. The word retreat must be cut out out entirely. Two companies of one of our sister battalions managed to get into Guillement village, but were sacrificed because of lack of support, largely as a result of that order. The village is still in enemy hands.

The company commander does not say that the order to retreat originated from the Germans, but his account clearly mirrors the entry in the “Notes” in the 55^th Divisional WD. I have checked the battalion WD of the ¼ LNL, and can see absolutely no reference to any confusion over an order to retreat there.

My questions are:

·         Was it a common problem, evidenced elsewhere, that Germans gave false orders iin English n the heat of battle ?

·         What might be the explanation for there being no reference to a false order to retreat in the battalion WD?

·         Is there any evidence of a similar problem with German speaking Allies allegedly giving false orders to the Germans?

Edited 30 September , 2021 by A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy
to add the word"allegedly" for clarification

[AOK4]

Isn't it very easy to blame the Germans? I think it's more probable that someone in the battalion heard or believed to have heard the order to retreat and did so, and others just followed.

It would be interesting to see how orders actually were passed on in the heat of battle (on either side). How did an officer order his men, spread over a rather large area to do something? Wasn't this the reason why one had buglers in the unit?

Jan

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

1 hour ago, AOK4 said:

Isn't it very easy to blame the Germans?

Nothing wrong with that.
They can blame whoever they like.
If there was any reason to suspect that your commands/codes have been compromised, then it is always prudent to change them.
That's if any breach of security is real, perceived or imaginary.

If you ever fall into the trap of believing your commands/instructions /codes are impregnable, or that you are too arrogant to change them, then that way lies the route to disaster.

As the Germans found out to their cost with Enigma 25 years later.

[A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy]

2 hours ago, AOK4 said:

Isn't it very easy to blame the Germans?

It is indeed easy to blame the other side, and that is one of the reasons why I was wondering whether there are any reciprocal accounts of the Allies misleading the Germans in a similar way?

Regarding buglers, I am not sure whether Territorial units had these, but, in any event, Jeudwine's "Notes" are certainly not saying that bugling should be the method of communication of choice when calling for withdrawal.

Edited 6 September , 2021 by A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy

[AOK4]

It's just that shouting in the middle of a fight doesn't seem like a very effective way of passing on commands. Isn't this why there were buglars etc attached to units to pass on the orders via different musical signals? When a German soldier would have shouted something along the lines of "retreat" or "retire" from across the battlefield, would anyone have even heard it in the noise of rifle fire and shells bursting? Considering that he would have been several dozens metres away at least.

This question raises a very interesting general question about command and control and how orders were transferred along the line. I can't remember having read any details really, but it would be interesting to know.

 

[charlie2]

1 hour ago, AOK4 said:

I can't remember having read any details really, but it would be interesting to know.

The German Army was certainly still using bugle calls on 21st March 1918. To quote from the narrative of Hauptmann Block in the Regimental History of IR 158

„Ich entschloss mich, das Signal „Rasch vorwärts“ blasen zu lassen, in der Erwartung, daß wir uns auf diese Weise am Schnellsten mit den hinter uns befindlichen Teilen verständigen würden. Ich sollte mich nicht getäuscht haben: unser altes preußisches Angriffssignal wirkte auch diesmal Wunder. Wie ein Mann erhob sich die Schützenlinie und erreichte in großen Sprüngen unsere Stellung.“

„I decided to have the signal "Quickly forward" sounded,  in the expectation that in this way we would communicate quickly with the elements behind us. I was not mistaken: our old Prussian attack signal worked wonders this time as well. The line rose like one man and reached our position in large bounds.“

Charlie

[WhiteStarLine]

9 hours ago, A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy said:

Was it a common problem, evidenced elsewhere, that Germans gave false orders in English n the heat of battle ?

I can give 2 examples where this claim was made in unit war diaries or histories.

• In 1914 the XV Brigade were part of First Ypres, at Herenthage Chateau.  One of the companies withdrew, leaving their trench vacant while in contact.  They were halted and ordered to retake the trench immediately.  The Germans could see the preparation and shifted a Maxim.  The trench was successfully retaken with minimal casualties and a subsequent enquiry believed (rightly or wrongly) that the order to retire came from the Germans and was passed from man to man.  My great uncle survived the charge with a bullet through his cloth cap and a bullet through his water bottle.  The episode is documented in the Brigade Commander's book.

• In March 1918 the AIF 11th Brigade was on the Somme helping stem the German Spring Offensive.  The war diary claimed that a German officer with good English was impersonating a British Lieutenant Colonel and ordering units to retire.  [Personally, knowing the AIF suspicion of English officers and soldier's reluctance to follow orders from unknown officers (let alone following their own officers!} I find this a tad unlikely].

[A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy]

23 hours ago, WhiteStarLine said:

I can give 2 examples where this claim was made in unit war diaries or histories.

Thank you for these two examples, Whitestarline, especially the one at which your great uncle was present.

I have come across another example myself, after looking at the WD of the 1^st South Staffordshire Battalion,, WO 95 1661/2, following up on a quote (from the book mentioned below) on page 9 of this threadhttps://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/38750-south-staffordshires-war-diaries/page/9/?tab=comments#comment-2916645

The WD of the 1st South Staffs is not an entirely conventional WD, in that it seems that the original diary from the beginning of the war to 10 November 1914 is missing, and has been replaced in part for the period from 7 August 1914 to 26 October 1914 by a typed record apparently written in the first person by a person of some authority. It is not entirely clear who the person who is writing in the first person is, in that the title page states the diary to be “From Brig-General R. M. Ovens”, but in it Ovens himself is often referred to by name as Colonel Ovens in the third person.

The quality of the writing is very variable, ranging from serious accounts of operations to humorous episodes, an example of the latter being an entry for 19 October 1914 describing the Colonel (presumably Colonel Ovens) being woken by a man having a nightmare, and, on being woken, slipping his balaclava helmet from his head to his neck, then proceeding to accuse his junior officers of having stolen it, and questioning them one by one while firing raged around outside the building in which they were billeted, until he finally discovered the helmet around his own neck, this episode being referred to in a marginal note as “The Battle of the Balaclava Helmet”.

This rather strange diary ends with an entry for 26 October 1914 describing an episode in which the 1 South Staffs were hard-pressed to hold the line.near Kruiseecke. It includes the following:

It was here that Colonel Ovens, who was fearfully pressed for men, saw a sort of general retirement. Captain White was sent to ascertain the reason for it and found that a message or word of command “Retire”, had been given by, I think, a German. All Corps, numbering about 250 men and officers were making a retirement in a disorderly mob …

Captain White told the troops that retirement had not been ordered, and was able to bring the situation under control so that they stood their ground and held the line.

This story of a German call to “Retire” (repeated with greater certainty in these terms “The line held under the deadly destruction of shell and machine-gun bullets for three hours, when by a ruse of the enemy behind them shouting ‘Retire!’, a few of the South Staffords obeyed”) appears in The Battle Book of Ypres; a reference to military operations in the Ypres Salient compiled by Beatrix Brice, originally published in 1927, and re-issued by Pen and Sword in 2014, but I do not know whether it is derived from any clearer primary sources for the account. The version contained in the 1^st South Staffs WD leaves entirely open the possibility that the belief that a German gave the order to retire may have been mistaken.

Edited 7 September , 2021 by A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy

[Stereoview Paul]

In 1914 'one man , dressed exactly like a British Officer of Gurkhas, came right up to the trenches, and in good English, said the company was to move farther along the trench to make room for another company moving up in support. The British officer in command being suspicious of the accent asked "Who are you?" and the reply was the same as before. "Answer at once  by what ship you came to France," was our officers next query, and the disguised German started to run but was shot dead. Similar ruses were not uncommon....'

This is from 'With the Indians in France' by General J Willcocks

[Guest]

Mate,

 

This appears to be in all armies at times.

A report on the fighting at the Battle of Amman see's a NZ order a retreat off the hill, the Nice NZ er's blamed the Australian Company with them?

Funny that?

Hears the part in some thing I wrote about the battle;

" The defence of the Hill had placed the 4^th Anzac Battalion on the far right or eastern flank of the NZ Mounted Brigade with the Wellington Mounted Rifles on the Battalions left flank. All the Battalion worked on stone sangers during the night, these were built for protection as the rocky ground allowing the shallowest of holes to be dug as the troops had no entrenching tools and once daylight came it was found that the soldiers were too exposed on the top of hill so most were withdrawn to the rear trenches leaving only one section of 10 men and two Lewis guns of the 16^th company to hold it.

 At 5 am the first attack came in supported by shell fire which smashed the stone Sangers the men had built for protection as shell and rock fragments sprayed the area. The shelling lasted an hour at which point the exposed section of Cameleers were withdrawn. By 9 am 500 Turks were seen massing to the north and at 9.30 they attacked yet despite their bravery the attack was beaten off by New Zealand troops with the help of captured machine guns. The Hong Kong and Singapore Battery had attached a section of guns to support the New Zealand Brigade in its attack however counter battery fire had smashed one of the guns sights and ammunition now ran out and the section was forced to retire to the main position.

 Despite this setback the Turks tried again and during this attack someone was heard to order a retirement this allowed the front trenches to be abandoned and the New Zealand trenches were lost as the troops fell back to their second line. This order was reported by the New Zealand Mounted to have come from the Camel Brigade however it was more probity a German or Turkish officer who spoke English which fooled the fatigued troops.

 This mix up was soon sorted out by the officers and a counterattack by the New Zealanders drove the Turks out of there ill gotten gains and down the hill at the point of the bayonet and the use of the bomb, the Adjutant Captain Alex Watt and the Regimental Sergeant Major Bob MacLean were wounded in the counterattack and Lieutenant’s Charles Thorby and Arthur Crawford of the 16^th company inspired their men in the charge who with Sergeant Harold Jones as they coolly rallied their men and led them back into the Turkish trenches. Captain Stan Howard advanced with elements of the 13^th company as the Turks made a fight of it however the men would not hold back and soon the Turks was driven off and despite the casualties the men stood on top of the hill shooting down at the panicked Turkish survivors as they fled back to Amman, the 16^th company lost Sergeant Colin Campbell and Privates Carl Bailey, Roland Wilkie killed during the fighting. In the 17^th Company Lance Corporal Stan Campbell was manning a Lewis gun when he was shot down, his brother Norm was the No 2 on the gun and quickly took his place only to be killed soon after, the Campbell brothers had enlisted in the 6^th Light Horse Regiment in 1915 from Scone NSW before transferring to the Camel Corps, they died together on the barren heights of hill 3039."

Cheers

S.B

[A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy]

On 09/09/2021 at 22:26, stevebecker said:

 Despite this setback the Turks tried again and during this attack someone was heard to order a retirement this allowed the front trenches to be abandoned and the New Zealand trenches were lost as the troops fell back to their second line. This order was reported by the New Zealand Mounted to have come from the Camel Brigade however it was more probity a German or Turkish officer who spoke English which fooled the fatigued troops.

Stevebecker, I see that the above quote is from something you wrote. Do you mind me asking what the original source was, and whether the suggestion that the command to retire probably came from a German or Turkish English-speaker is your view, or an opinion reported in the original? 

In any event, if that was the case, either in the example you have given, or in any of the other examples, it has to have been an opportunistic deception, given the difficulties of making making oneself heard to the target audience, at the same time as ensuring that they should not easily discern the true source of the order. This is in contrast to the deception referred to by @Stereoview Paul , which would have been premeditated.

Incidentally the 1st South Staffs' diary, from which I quoted from in my last post, has another couple examples of alleged deception, a German sniper dressed in a dead soldier's khaki uniform on 23 October 1914, whom we are told was shot by the Queen's, and, on 25 October 1914, a party of Germans saying "We are Scots Guards and South Staffords", which protected them from being fired on only until the spikes became visible on their helmets.

Sad to read about the death of the two Campbell brothers on 30 March 1918. Lance Corporal Stanley John Campbell, aged 21, and Trooper Norman Harold Campbell, aged 24. I have found their details on the CWGC website, and see that they are buried side by side in the Damascus Commonwealth War Cemetery. I recall several other threads mentioning relatives being killed in action on the same day - dreadfully sad for the family. 

Edited 30 September , 2021 by A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy
to add the word "alleged" for clarification

[Guest]

Mate,

Yes sorry, its my view not the writers of the sourses, as the NZ sourses all blame the Australians of the 4th Anzac Bn (companies of Australian (13Coy & 17Coy) and NZ troops (16Coy) for the order?

Since we were at the far end of the line, then the order must have come from the centre, which would make it a NZ Mounted Bde order not Australian

That it was possibly a Turk or German who spoke English is a guess by me, as no Australian or I hope Kiwi would give such an order.

The Camel Corps Kiwi's had become defensive minded after what happened to the 15th NZ Company at the battle of Bald Hill 27 Dec 1917 when over run by the Turks and forced off there posts.

S.B

Edited 25 September , 2021 by stevebecker

[AOK4]

8 hours ago, stevebecker said:

That it was possibly a Turk or German who spoke English is a guess by me, as no Australian or I hope Kiwi would give such an order.

This is the flaw in your reasoning. The whole point of this thread is that no English, Australian, ... soldier would ever give an order to retreat and thus it must be an evil German who did it whenever it was given.

The British and Commonwealth army was some kind of Überarmy  which never retreated (or at least really had to retreat)? Why on earth did they need four years then to defeat the German army? After 100 years it is really time to open your eyes for the other side. This is a general remark I make towards all people researching WWI. The German army was not an army of foolish victims led by a militaristic upper class (nor was any allied army). Both sides had good and bad elements and both sides were equally fighting for victory for what they believed was a good and just case. Both sides made mistakes which led to minor or major losses and setbacks or victories.

Deal with the fact that sometimes retreats were necessary and orders for retreats were given, whether they were really necessary or not.

There was a huge fear for spies or fake officers during the whole war on both sides. It would be really interesting if some serious research would be done on this using the orders and also investigating whether there was any truth in all these spy stories.

Jan

[Guest]

Mate,

Yes I would not disagree, its one of the many myths from that war.

I have just gone throw the same on Germans who used the White flag to trick British/Commonweath officers and soldiers to expose themselves in order to shoot them down?

There are many such sourses that blame the Germans for this trick or Ruse de guerre?

So the use of English to trick is another such weapon we give to our enermies. either true or not, its well documented that they possibly did use it?

I'll still not that sure they did, but like the Girl snipers at Gallipoli it does not go away?

S.B

[Old Forge]

On 06/09/2021 at 14:57, A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy said:

My questions are:

·         Was it a common problem, evidenced elsewhere, that Germans gave false orders iin English n the heat of battle ?

·         What might be the explanation for there being no reference to a false order to retreat in the battalion WD?

·         Is there any evidence of a similar problem with German speaking Allies allegedly giving false orders to the Germans?

Hi @A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy,

As the replies so far have said, what actually happened and what soldiers thought had happened must often have been very different during confused and confusing engagements. Even in quieter times - and especially near the beginning of the war - War Diarists occasionally claim that spies signalled to the enemy gunners through various means, including coloured lights, windmill sails and the like. Spies and bogus orders to 'do x, y and z' also get mentions. As AOK says, it may be easier to make an excuse than swallow the truth sometimes and my expectation is that rumours of spies and bogus orders are hugely exaggerated. FWIW, PJ Cambell in his memoir ('In the Cannon's Mouth') also cites ghost stories as being surprisingly common amongst soldiers when he reached the front in 1917. 

There's a good example of the 'order to retire' in the 2/Wiltshires WD covering the period when they were overrun at Reutel (in front of Polygon Wood) on 24th October 1914. They were a part of the 7th Division, which formed at Lyndhurst on 3rd September 1914 with regular battalions returned from overseas (2/Wilts came back from Gibraltar). The Division landed at Zebrugge, mostly on 6th/7th October. Following their unsuccessful march to relieve Ghent, they screened the Belgian Army's withdrawal, and arrived in Ypres on 14th October. After a night in billets, they pushed out eastwards on the 15th, eventually digging in along an extended front from north of Broodseinde to Kruisecke and around to Zandvoorde. They attempted to advance on Menin, but from 20th October the German advance pushed them onto the defensive. 21st-24th October saw attacks massed infantry attacks on the 2/Wilts position, by day and night. On the 24th, German troops had filtered around into the hamlet of Reutel, behind the 2/Wilts position. The Battalion was rolled up from south to north whilst the defenders were pinned down by fire from their front and rear. By that time, the men were exhausted. It had been a struggle to keep rifles firing due to sand clogging the action and breaking the extractors. Without proper defence stores (no sandbags or materials for revetting), heavy shelling blew in their trenches, which had been hastily dug into sandy soil.

The 2/Wilts War Diary (WO 95/1659/3) consists of the normal WD pages, written in pencil, plus a separate account by the CO, written in POW camp in Krefeld and smuggled to England not too long before the war ended. An early instance of the sheer confusion at this time comes from this latter narrative. He reports a Corporal Perry coming in from his Piquet to report Germans massing 400 yards in front of the Battalion's right. Forbes say that No 15 Platoon opened fire (and the fire 'soon became general'). No 15 Platoon (D Coy) were on the left and would be firing across the battalion's front in order to hit anyone 400 yards in front of the Battalion's right. Having visited the area a few times to try and work out exactly where 2 Wilts dug in, it was an extended line and firing from left to right of the line at night would be risky. Forbes continues: 'it was during this firefight that Capt AC Magor was killed.' What Colonel Forbes doesn't mention is that Capt Magor was killed by 'friendly fire'. The 1 South Staffs WD (WO 95/1664/2) says "This night [15/16th Oct] there was a continuous rifle fire the whole night. The Wiltshire Regiment, who were on our right, were the cause of this fusillade and by some unforeseen error, Captain Magor of C Company was shot dead by his own men." Colonel Forbes's account would have been written in in anticipation of a Court of Inquiry into the Battalion's loss if he ever returned to England.

On 23rd October, Colonel Forbes's account states: '[...] Mysterious orders had been passed from trench to trench that a retirement was to take place. It was impossible to discover the source of this false report, but a lull in firing enabled the Commanding Officer to inform each Company Officer that no retirement would take place unless and until the battalion was relieved and that the order, when given, would be given in writing. It is suspected that some of the 'stragglers' we picked up in Ostend were German spies and that these false reports emanated from them. It is a fact that some of these men have not been seen or heard of since.'

I offer the above illustrations because, for me, they each illustrate the workings of the 'fog of war' in minds already wearied beyond belief. The Wiltshires were  largely without communications and unsighted as to the situation both to their front, their flanks and to the rear.

There is no further mention of the Ostend stragglers, who were likely killed ore captured along with the rest of the battalion's 900(+) casualties. Nor does the bogus order to retire receive further mention. The 21st Brigade WD mentions a 2/Wilts subaltern arriving at Bde HQ during the night 23/24th October and saying that the battalion had withdrawn, but this precedes the 'mysterious order' cited by Col Forbes. It's also incorrect - the Brigade Commander went up to investigate and found the battalion in its trenches, 'exhausted but confident.' Again, on the morning of the 24th, a straggler reached 21 Bde HQ and stated that the battalion had retired. The Brigade staff discounted these reports on the basis that they'd have seen something of it if the whole battalion had fallen back. As it is, 2/Wilts were largely killed or captured in place.

Perhaps these various rumours suggest that men falling back (having had to vacate trenches because they were collapsing under heavy shell fire and burying their comrades alive) would tend to say something along the lines of, 'it isn't just me - everyone else fell back as well.'

Enough rambling, I hope this adds a little to your investigation.

All the best,

Richard

Edited 27 September , 2021 by Old Forge

[A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy]

On 26/09/2021 at 07:55, AOK4 said:

The whole point of this thread is that no English, Australian, ... soldier would ever give an order to retreat and thus it must be an evil German who did it whenever it was given.

As the person who started this thread I would just like to say that the above was certainly not the whole point of this thread as far as I was concerned. The questions raised in the thread relate to whether it is commonly reported – on either side - that false instructions to retire were given by the other side, and whether there is any evidence that these reports were accurate. I apologise if the way in which I phrased the OP did not make this as clear as it might have been, though I did certainly expressly recognize that sometimes the order to “retire” would tactically be the most sensible thing. In case it helps, I have edited a couple of my posts to include the words “allegedly” or similar.

It would be interesting to know what similar reports there are of false orders to "retire" being given in German by the Allies, if anyone is able to supply this information.

By the way, in re-reading (for the purposes of my comment on spies etc. below) the WD of the 2nd Battalion Royal Scots, relating to the period during and following the retreat from Mons - when obviously the order to retreat was indeed given by the Allies - there is another good illustration of how confusing it was for those on the ground, in addition (if such is needed) to the excellent example given by @Old Forge in his contribution (for which very many thanks). This is contained in a report by Major C.S. Tweedie dated 30 October 1914, where the entry for 26 August 1914, describing the Battle of Cateau, includes the following:

About 5 p.m. an order came down the line from the right of the Battalion, to "Retire". This order was verbal and was said to have come from a "Staff Officer". "C" Coy retired towards the village but almost immediately returned (or a portion of the Coy) and reoccupied the position in the trenches. The Machine Gun Officer, Lieut. J. Laidlay, ran back to the village to try to ascertain what this order meant, but did not return. (It is now known that this Officer was wounded on this errand). O.C. "D" Coy decided to hold his position, as the Gordon Highlanders, on his immediate left, had not received the order to retire ...

The report never expresses a view one way or the other as to whether this order to retire was in fact genuine or not, but many amongst those whom remained in position became casualties or prisoners.

On 26/09/2021 at 07:55, AOK4 said:

There was a huge fear for spies or fake officers during the whole war on both sides. It would be really interesting if some serious research would be done on this using the orders and also investigating whether there was any truth in all these spy stories.

I echo this sentiment, if this research has not already been done. It seems to me, as an amateur, that there is pretty good evidence of each side engaging in subterfuge of one sort or another in order to gain an advantage, including some evidence from the side engaging in such subterfuge (eg in Lucy's There's a Devil in the Drum, Chapter 37, he gives an account of logs got up to look like British guns so as to draw enemy fire), but men ordered to operate as spies in and around the front is slightly different. I have read several accounts (including in my own grandfather's diary, A Lancashire Fusilier's First World War) where Germans in trenches opposite to the Allies seemed to have known in advance which units of the Allies were going to be relieving the incumbents, and it may well be that that was the German experience too, so it is understandable that spying was suspected. I have also read (again including in my grandfather's diary) several accounts of men suspected of belonging to the enemy being seen in the other side's trenches, and then mysteriously disappearing.

As @Old Forge says, there are also many reports of other types of spying being suspected (apart from soldiers simply infiltrating the other sides' trenches). As a specific example, the WD of the 2nd Bn. Royal Scots referred to above has the following entry for 26 November 1914:

Sent a suspected spy to Brigade HdQs. Clock hands on WULVERINGHEM Church were seen to move systematically backwards and forwards. Search party failed to find the operator. 

Whether the suspect was confirmed as a spy is not stated in this WD, and I have not looked for any reciprocal entry in the 8th Brigade WD. With regard to the insinuation regarding the clock hands, It's hard not to be sceptical about this as a method of signalling to the enemy, as it would surely have carried an unacceptably high risk of being caught in the act.

My grandfather also gives a few accounts of spying being suspected, and was inevitably sometimes caught up in entertaining such suspicion himself, but at the same time as reporting  the suspicion he mostly tends to signal a certain measure of scepticism, for example precursing one such account in July 1915 by the wry comment: "Spy fever was prevalent". Certainly no actual spies were apprehended on that occasion.

Edited 26 October , 2021 by A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy

[A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy]

I have just come across another thread where there is a suggestion, not verified, that a German masquerading as a British officer may have given the order to retire, in circumstances where, if that was not so, the consequences were dire. A link to the thread is here:

https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/293581-half-of-an-officers-last-letter-before-the-big-push-can-you-please-help-me-to-decipher-it/

If anyone hasn't read that other thread, it is a fascinating piece of deduction, and the possibility of a fateful error on the part of the young man in question shouldn't be allowed to detract from his courage in what proved to be his final hours.

[Guest]

Mate,

Yes its like the the story of them doing the deed.

I don't see it my selve and I would need a lot to show me its even close to being true.

I think its like most of these stories, us try to justify a mistake by blaming the enemy, which is easier then admitting we suffed up, what the yanks say SNUFU.

I don't know if you have see service or in been in the ****, but you know little of what is going on around you, half deaf from firing, smoke and noise from explosions and you hear some one say, something like Retreat, you don't know who, what or where, but the word goes from man to man and the next thing your following someone, untill some sorts the mess out and you go back?

Then your asking your mates who said that, where did it come from, what happened?

If your not been there you will never understand how easy it can happen, such a simple thing or a misunderstood word

S.B

[Guest]

Mate,

I did notice this by the Berks Yeomanry at Gallipoli.

"At one moment they seemed below the crest and the next right on the top. Those Turks who had not fled in time from the trenches were bayoneted and a great shout went up "WE HAVE WON HILL 70." Then the darkness took over and the battlefield had vanished leaving a vista of rolling clouds of smoke and large fires. Then the roar of rifle and machine gun fire started up again and the Turks were counter attacking, especially those who had never been driven off completely from the Knoll; these troops enfiladed our soldiers with machine guns and artillery and the Yeomen who had dashed down the reverse slopes in pursuit of the Turks were counter-attacked END OF PAGE 6 and so great were their losses that they had to return back over the top of the Hill and down again the northern slope. The troops then heard the order "Retreat" (it was said afterwards that this order was given by a Turk dressed in a British Officer's jacket but no confirmation of this was ever to my knowledge made or accepted by the British High Command.) However, it was now apparent that the Hill could not be held by the apparently small number of troops now available and these withdrew to their original positions where the battle started. So Chocolate Scimitar Hill was won and lost in a few hours but nothing will lessen the glory of that final charge of England's Yeomen."

S.B

[rolt968]

The actual War Diary of 1 Black Watch for late October 1914 is missing. The war diary contains a number of letters about who if anyone gave an order to retire if it was actually given.

It was discussed in this thread:

https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/195541-1-black-watch-27-to-29-october-1914/?tab=comments#comment-1914578

There seems to have been some thinking that it was a German trick.

RM

[A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy]

On 26/10/2021 at 23:27, rolt968 said:

There seems to have been some thinking that it was a German trick.

Interesting, @rolt968 . Not surprisingly, it never seems to have been confirmed beyond doubt that this form of deception actually occurred, on either side, not from the examples cited so far, anyway.

[Old Forge]

It seems this sort of thing was going on right to the end. I've just found this in the 2/SCOTS GDS War Diary for 13th October 1918 (Guards Division advancing between Cambrai and Le Cateau):

'At least one case of a German dressed in civilian clothes shooting first the Frenchman who pointed him out and then one of our corporals (Cpl LINDEKVIST, LF Coy) was authenticated: the man was shot by Sgt SPIERS.'

(Source: WO-95-1223-4_2 p105/125)

Again, impossible to verify such a claim. One imagines a confused situation and - perhaps at worst - a German soldier whose uniform was well past its sell-by date and unrecognisable but who was otherwise doing what he was paid to do.

All the best,

Richard

[brianmorris547]

This is from the November 1914 War Diary of 1 Div HQ GS. A couple of posts on this thread show these suspected ruses were being employed at First Ypres. I have not looked in the RFA papers.

Brian

TNA/Ancestry WO 95/1227