Help to identify Regiment & Battalion please

[Simon J Emmerson]

Good Evening. I'm struggling to identify this group photo postcard taken while on Active Service. My thoughts are Royal Scots,   Battalion??? Obviously I've noticed the pioneer badge on the collars. I'd be greatful for any help identify the Reg & Battalion.

Regards Simon 

[FROGSMILE]

Yes I agree that they look like Royal Scots, Simon.  That regiment formed just one pioneer unit, the 1/8th TF, which landed at Havre docks on Guy Fawkes Night in 1914 and initially served with the 22nd Brigade of 7th Division.  I suspect the photo was taken in Summer 1916, which I recall reading was a scorcher with quite a number of units adopting shorts (that dating also chimes with the Tam-o-shanter bonnets).  It’s interesting to get a relatively rare sighting of an Army Ordnance Corps SNCO in the group.  He’s a staff sergeant with a badge that I can’t quite make our between his stripes and crown above.  It appears to be either 2-letters (LG?) or perhaps the snaffle & bit badge of a collar maker/saddler.  Perhaps @Michelle Youngor @CorporalPunishmentcan confirm? 

Edited 4 September , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Simon J Emmerson]

3 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Yes I agree that they look like Royal Scots, Simon.  That regiment formed just one pioneer unit, the 1/8th TF, who landed at Havre docks on Guy Fawkes Night in 1914 and initially served with the 22nd Brigade of 7th Division.

Thank you for the information. Much appreciated 

[Michelle Young]

Looks like L and possibly S 

[FROGSMILE]

5 minutes ago, Michelle Young said:

Looks like L and possibly S 

Thanks Michelle, there was an LG variant produced in script form where the G looked like an S so I think that must be it. It sometimes appeared without the surrounding Laurel wreath (from a 2-part badge).  It indicates he was a Lewis Gun instructor.

Edited 4 September , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Simon J Emmerson]

5 minutes ago, Michelle Young said:

Looks like L and possibly S 

Thank you Michelle 👍 

[CorporalPunishment]

I think the AOC man is wearing the trade badge of an artificer.     Pete.

[PhilB]

All the RS men are in shorts. Were shorts an issue item for troops in F&F?

[FROGSMILE]

15 minutes ago, CorporalPunishment said:

I think the AOC man is wearing the trade badge of an artificer.     Pete.

Do you mean the hammer and pincers Pete?  I did consider that first thing, as it’s a very common badge for AOC, not least for the unit Armourer.  It’s a badge I’m particularly familiar with seeing at all angles and all distances, but no matter how I squinted I couldn’t make out that format.  Nevertheless it’s much more likely that the LG without wreath.  Can anyone else see it? 

9 minutes ago, PhilB said:

All the RS men are in shorts. Were shorts an issue item for troops in F&F?

A number of units seem to have brought them from India Phil.  I’ve seen some in Bombay bloomers where the bottom half buttons up.

Edited 4 September , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[PhilB]

Yes, 🐸. Understandable in a regular battalion, previously abroad, but these were TF?

[FROGSMILE]

4 hours ago, PhilB said:

Yes, 🐸. Understandable in a regular battalion, previously abroad, but these were TF?

I can only presume that there were some in the supply chain by 1916 Phil. There was no difference in supply for regular/Svc/TF, etc.  It’s an interesting aspect though and I’d love to learn more.  There was a thread about it quite a few years back in which Joe Sweeney gave some good information, but I cannot recall all the details now.

Edited 4 September , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

@CorporalPunishmentjust looked again on a laptop screen and can see the hammer and pincers now.  Great spot and far more logical for an AOC SNCO in an infantry unit, thank you.

For: @Simon J Emmerson as you may know each infantry battalion had on its establishment an armourer sergeant (rank ranged Sgt or SSgt) who was responsible for the maintenance of his unit’s arms.  They had been on each infantry unit establishment since 1803 and were among the first four sergeants on the battalion headquarters staff (ergo ‘staff sergeants’) to be created*.  It adds a real note of extra interest to your photo.

* the remaining three were the sergeant major, the quarter-master-sergeant, and the pay sergeant.

Edited 5 September , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Simon J Emmerson]

19 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

@CorporalPunishmentjust looked again on a laptop screen and can see the hammer and pincers now.  Great spot and far more logical for an AOC SNCO in an infantry unit, thank you.

For: @Simon J Emmerson as you may know each infantry battalion had on its establishment an armourer sergeant (rank ranged Sgt or SSgt) who was responsible for the maintenance of his unit’s arms.  They had been on each infantry unit establishment since 1803 and were among the first four sergeants on the battalion headquarters staff (ergo ‘staff sergeants’) to be created*.  It adds a real note of extra interest to your photo.

* the other three were the sergeant major, the quartermaster-sergeant, and the pay sergeant.

Many thanks for the information and  help. 

13 hours ago, CorporalPunishment said:

I think the AOC man is wearing the trade badge of an artificer.     Pete.

Thank you  Pete a great spot very eagle eyed. 

[eltoro1960]

Definitely the 1/8th Royal Scots, I have two original copies of that very photo, in a collection donated to me that belonged to RSM Peter Darroch 1/8th Royal Scots. 

[mancpal]

The soldier with the cap (rather than Tam) on the middle row appears to have at least 1 medal ribbon visible. any thoughts >

Simon

[CorporalPunishment]

33 minutes ago, mancpal said:

The soldier with the cap (rather than Tam) on the middle row appears to have at least 1 medal ribbon visible. any thoughts >

Simon

He is wearing the ribbons of the Queen's South Africa Medal and the King's South Africa Medal.   Pete.

[FROGSMILE]

The SNCO with the cap is the Armourer Sergeant, as seems to have been forgotten.  He was a very important chap and the most highly paid staff sergeant in the battalion.

Edited 20 October , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[PhilB]

Gents, are we really saying that this is a hammer and pincers artificer`s badge?

[FROGSMILE]

31 minutes ago, PhilB said:

Gents, are we really saying that this is a hammer and pincers artificer`s badge?

Yes Phil, although it is I agree a distorted view @CorporalPunishment(Pete) correctly identified the badge earlier in the thread.  As it happens it fits completely with his AOC cap badge as additional corroborating evidence.

Edited 20 October , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[PhilB]

A couple of badges for comparison.

[FROGSMILE]

40 minutes ago, PhilB said:

A couple of badges for comparison.

Yes Phil, your comparators are better images, that’s for sure, but although I wasn’t sure at first, I realised that Pete was correct after examination on a larger screen. 

[eltoro1960]

On 04/09/2021 at 18:02, Simon J Emmerson said:

Good Evening. I'm struggling to identify this group photo postcard taken while on Active Service. My thoughts are Royal Scots,   Battalion??? Obviously I've noticed the pioneer badge on the collars. I'd be greatful for any help identify the Reg & Battalion.

Regards Simon 

Definitely the 1/8th Royal Scots I have 2 copies of that photo as well, part of a collection gifted to me by family of RSM Peter Darroch.

[FROGSMILE]

18 minutes ago, eltoro1960 said:

Definitely the 1/8th Royal Scots I have 2 copies of that photo as well, part of a collection gifted to me by family of RSM Peter Darroch.

I think that’s been posted already?