Help me identify my 303 British rifle

[5thBatt]

1 hour ago, 4thGordons said:

Hmmmm wow -- so errr......that's a totally new one on me! I have at least one with a similar cocking piece which I always thought was a No4 one that had been fitted -- I will now have to hunt it down and check for markings

I just did a quick run through all the standard refs and LOCs etc and I don't see any mention of this pattern at all!

 Is there any indication on your NRF that it had a WWII refurb?  or an S273 on the cocking piece?

It appears every day is a school day.....

 

 

 

 

My NRF is all original from the 1918 build as far as i can determine, looked at Skennerton's book to see if there was a drawing to go with the change but no luck, however the photo he shows of the markings at the rear for the Peddled scheme rifles shows the SSA with the same pattern, the SMLE with the 20 round mag also shows this pattern of cocking piece also one of the MkV photos

[4thGordons]

I was wondering about the MkIV and/or V as a source but if yours is all original..... (the irony is of course some of the early No4 rifles had a cocking piece more like the original "top hat" shape!)

I also went through Skennerton and Stratton (and also Reynolds) but I only looked at drawings and descriptions not photos, I'll look again now - thanks for that.

Tomorrow I'll dig out my SSA and NRF rifles and have a look and see.

[Mattr82]

The Type B cocking piece (As the one in the post is) was seen as early as 1916 but came into full production onto rifles from 1918 once earlier Type A was getting all used up. Earlier ones were rounded at the top and then that was done away with as an expedient to hurrying up production of the cocking pieces.

[4thGordons]

14 minutes ago, Mattr82 said:

The Type B cocking piece (As the one in the post is) was seen as early as 1916 but came into full production onto rifles from 1918 once earlier Type A was getting all used up. Earlier ones were rounded at the top and then that was done away with as an expedient to hurrying up production of the cocking pieces.

Source for this information please?

Chris

[Mattr82]

Source for this information please?

The Lee Enfield bible - p170 or p220. Was listed under a LOC for RSAF late in WW1 and for BSA for WW2 if I recall correctly. Certainly the expediency for flat and rounded edges on these cocking pieces were seen in both WW1 and WW2 and both production variants and both were changed under wartime expediency. I showed Ian Skennerton one of my Lithgows has and we got onto the conversation about it. He lives just up the road from myself.

 

Edited 4 September , 2021 by Mattr82

[4thGordons]

Thanks for that!

Assuming we are looking at the same edition (2007?) of Skennerton p170 is dealing with sniper scopes so I am not sure that page is correct? but p172 shows a photograph of an SSA rifle with a similar cocking piece that @5thBatt mentioned.

The same style is also shown on the MkV rifle (p472) which was approved in 1922 and produced between 1922-24.

The cocking pieces illustrated on p220 are the WWII No4 Rifle cocking pieces I initially identified this as. (TLE 2007:220) and there is the passing comment that they are "similar to the type used on some MkIII* rifles" but unfortunately no further detail that I can see.

I am not quite sure what you mean when you say this "Certainly the expediency for flat and rounded edges on these cocking pieces were seen in both WW1 and WW2 and both production variants and both were changed under wartime expediency"

There is no question that the simplified flat sided cocking piece was introduced in late 1915/6 as a production simplification (see below) it is the arched top version I am puzzled by.

What I am trying to work out here is the timeline:

(WARNING WHAT FOLLOWS INCLUDES SPECULATION ALTHOUGH I HAVE TRIED TO GROUND IT IN EXAMPLES AND DOCUMENTATION)

So for clarity - we are looking at 3 different variations - the earlier Oval cross section cocking piece (Oval), the simplified slab sided piece(Slab) and the arched cross-section piece (Arched)

Note the Arched referred to here is not the later WWII more rounded "edges" on cocking pieces produced by Lithgow and Ishapore (also slightly thicker) described in Stratton (p61)here we are concerned with the fully arched top piece shown on the OP's rifle and above.

As I understood it previously, the Oval cross piece began to be replaced by the Slab cross piece in late 1915, the change eventually being documented in the LoC in August 1916 as part of the approved (but not required) manufacturing simplifications associated with the introduction of the MkIII* rifle.

LoC para 17882 August 1916 details this change (no change to the cocking piece is mentioned in LoC para 17622 Jan 1916 which details the manufacturing simplifications that may be embodied in future MkIII* rifle production, the cocking piece gets its own LoC)

Unfortunately there is no diagram of the new cocking piece in the LoC 17882 however the description of the new piece reads:

"In future manufacture, cocking pieces of the above mentioned pattern (LoC 17622 - the MkIII* my addition Chris) will be modified as follows --

The knurled head removed, more metal left above the striker hole, and three finger grooves cut on each side at the rear end to afford a grip when cocking the rifle without opening the bolt ... The new pattern cocking piece is suitable as spare, for all rifles fitted with Cocking Pieces, MLE short MkI or MkI*"

So it is beginning to look to me as though the arched top type is a manufacturing variation ie one interpretation of the LoC, rather than an entirely different pattern of cocking piece.

POSSIBILITY 1: If you have a look at the original Oval type and follow the description in LoC 17882 to remove the knurled head, this would leave an clearly arched profile with flat sides into which slots would would then be machined. This would produce a cocking piece like that which initiated this discussion.   It would seem to me this shape would be more complex to produce than the squared flat top Slab shape which perhaps explains why it is less common.

In terms of the time line:  logic might suggest that the earlier alternative cocking pieces were arched, but this was later simplified to the slab-sided, flat topped to aid production. This would appear to make sense, however I don't think this is necessarily the case (see below)

Although it is in no way a representative sample - I have 26 MkIII* rifles produced by various British manufacturers between 1915 and 1919 and although I haven't been able to check each one yet, I am certain that the vast majority of those - including the early 1915 BSA MkIII* marked ones and 3x 1918 Enfield produced rifles (like that here) have the squared slab sided cocking piece. (I will attempt a detailed inventory) In addition, many of my earlier MkIII rifles which have been through FTR have been fitted with the slab sided cocking piece also.

So, it does seem clear that the arched top cocking-piece seems significantly less common than the standard slab sided variant.

POSSIBILITY 2: the fact that this arched design becomes the design used on the post war MkV rifle and then later the No4/No5 rifles (and also appears on Indian weapons refurbished in the late 30s and 40s see above) suggests to me that the domed shape was brought in later not earlier than the common Slab Sided version. Examples of the arched type fitted as original equipment on pre 1918 rifles (esp 1915/16 rifles) would challenge this conclusion should they emerge. If the arched top type were the "early" version (quickly supplanted by a simplified slab sided type) one would expect them to show up most frequently on late 1915 BSA and early 1916 Enfield MkIII* rifles I would have thought. That said, to the best of my recollection, again I will check, all 12 of my 1929-1944 British (BSA) produced No1 MkIII/MkIII* rifles have the standard slab-sided pieces, not arched ones!

POSSIBILITY 3: Alternatively, the fact that we now have two examples on SSA rifles (5thBatt's and the one pictured in Skennerton) and the original 1918 Enfield example posted here, *might* indicate these arched cocking pieces were produced by one of the Peddle Scheme component suppliers which supplied RSAF Enfield later in the war and consequently show up infrequently and on later (1918) rifles.

Skennerton (p173/4) lists:

• Joseph B Ashbury (Lench St Birmingham)
• Boss and Co (Dover St Picadilly London)
• Holland and Holland (New Bond St London)
• Job Lee Premier Engineering and Tool Works (Kettering)

As suppliers of cocking pieces for spares and to the Peddle Scheme (for assembly at RSAF), this might explain the apparent prevalence (OK we have 2 examples!) of this variant on late (1918) SSA/Enfield rifles. I have a couple of 1918 SSA rifles and a couple of NRF rifles which I will check later (my recollection is that they have standard slab sided cocking pieces but I will check). It would seem that the two London based contractors might be the most likely candidates based on proximity to RSAF Enfield.

At this point I think possibility 3 seems slightly more convincing to me, but examples of 1915/16 MkIII* rifles with the arched cocking-piece would probably change that!

Apologies for the long-winded "thinking out-loud", I'd appreciate corrections/suggestions to the above! (and apologies to the OP for this shameless hijacking of his post with Enfield minutiae)

Chris

 

 

Edited 4 September , 2021 by 4thGordons

[Mattr82]

I definitely think possibility 3 is the most likely. Maybe the factory wasn't under the time constraints that the larger factories were and so production expediency wasn't an issue? 

[4thGordons]

Well..... I think I need to keep better notes! (and I also think I am seeing a pattern)

After looking through most of my rifles I found, as I recalled that the vast majority of post 1915 rifles MkIII* have the regular slab sided cocking piece with a flat top - HOWEVER....4 have an arched cocking piece

2 were 1918 SSA rifles like 5Battn's (so that make 4 of these if the one in Skennerton is included

1 was a 1918 NRF marked rifle (on this one the cocking piece was slightly different again with the top of the rear face angled it is the one closest to the camera in the first pic and below

 

also and 1 was a 1918 Enfield MkIII* that was converted to a No2 MkIV* (.22) by Parker Hale (one of the AM prefix serials)

So this would seem to me to be fairly clear support for the idea that these were used on late rifles rather than early.

I now need to get out a magnifier and look for markings on these.

Chris

[Christopher Eubanks]

Hey friend, been a while,I do have a question,is there ammo over there for these 303's ? I can't get it here right now.