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The Great War (1914-1918) Forum

Remembered Today:

Help me identify my 303 British rifle


Christopher Eubanks

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The markings on the wrist tells you what it is:

It is an Enfield made (so that is the Royal Small Arms Factory at Enfield Lock) Short, Magazine Lee-Enfield  MkIII* (say "mark three star") manufactured in what looks like 1918 although I cannot be sure from the picture that the last digit is an 8

It is a late war production example of the standard British service rifle of WWI.

This example looks well used and from the pics provided I cannot tell if it is complete (would need to see the whole rifle)

There serial numbers the receiver (V1803) should be matched with the same number on the rear of the bolt handle, the barrel (under the upper - short - handguard) the underside of the rear sight, and on the bayonet mounting boss under the muzzle.

Chris

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Yes all numbers match,but the stock has been cut ,I'm currently looking for another top and bottom stock for this rifle,the bayonet mount is missing,is it possible to find another one with the same numbers? That's probably a dumb question.the old girl is tight and fires well,what's a matching number rifle like this worth? It's not for sale ,I would just like to know,I am planning on having it re blued and refinish the replacement stock,btw , there's a place for an emblem on the butt stock! Is that something that can be located easily?

 

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Nope - best you can do is find a blank foresight protector. These used to be easy to find but in the last 2 years or so it has got far harder to source them (try Gunparts Corp - Numrich)

Matching numbers helps but cut down/sporterized undermines that and then some.

The stock discs can be found easily both real and repro (blank would be OK for this vintage) eBay would be the easiest place to start.

Best way to ascertain value is to search Gunbroker for sold items that are similar (Sporterized Enfield might be a good search), even in today's rather inflated market they are not going to be close to the value of a complete matching rifle.

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Thank you so much for your help,I really appreciate it,at least now I know more about it,my grandfather was in WW2 , he was a field surgeon,among many other things he has rings and metals for, anyway some how he was able to keep his rifle! It was a 303 brit but had a flip out box on the side that held three shells! It's long gone now but I always thought it was a cool rifle when I was a child.

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11 hours ago, Christopher Eubanks said:

Thank you so much for your help,I really appreciate it,at least now I know more about it,my grandfather was in WW2 , he was a field surgeon,among many other things he has rings and metals for, anyway some how he was able to keep his rifle! It was a 303 brit but had a flip out box on the side that held three shells! It's long gone now but I always thought it was a cool rifle when I was a child.

This sounds like you are actually describing a Krag-Jorgenson rifle (US Krag)

This was a pre WWI US service rifle but remained in limited service (and the first US Engineers to arrive in the UK in 1917 had them) - although the cartridge is rimmed like the .303 British it was actually US .30-40Krag (a similar but different round). 

Chris

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14 minutes ago, 4thGordons said:

This sounds like you are actually describing a Krag-Jorgenson rifle (US Krag)

This was a pre WWI US service rifle but remained in limited service (and the first US Engineers to arrive in the UK in 1917 had them) - although the cartridge is rimmed like the .303 British it was actually US .30-40Krag (a similar but different round). 

Chris

Yes that's the rifle! I remember them talking about how hard it was to get shells for it back in the 80s,thanks for the information

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12 hours ago, AOK4 said:

Isn't the bolt the post WWI type?

I missed this.

The Bolt bodies remained the same throughout the production of the MkIII/MkIII* as did the bolt head, firing pin(very minor variations), spring etc.

However there were a couple of patterns of cocking piece on the rear of the bolt

The original pattern was rounded with an oval cross section, as a manufacturing simplification a slab sided grooved version was approved during the war (from @1916 on) and is common - this type was also produced in WWII as a replacement part. There are also several Indian post WWII variants with single (or no) grooves.

However, here (good eye @AOK4!) it looks like the bolt has been fitted with a cocking piece from a No4 (WWII vintage) Rifle.

Here is the original type (rounded)

DSC_8616.JPG.db855948f47e2f8ec293b94853815456.JPG

DSC_8617.JPG.21a4ddd8cd050b3cb36e7da58f9d197b.JPG

The slab sided MkIII* rifle cocking piece looks like this (note flat top)

DSC_8614.JPG.c2846ff2f0846f85809e71f8b80ae94e.JPG

DSC_8615.JPG.bdb4d5d326df17a9f21a72f0003fab2c.JPG

The No4 MkI/I* cocking piece looks like this (note rounded/domed top) and this appears to be what has been fitted here.

DSC_8619.JPG.0d076effcc990d785aa844c683e2a2cf.JPG

 

DSC_8620.JPG.8da67597c2bcd1f93d1878588dd0ed66.JPG

 

Edited by 4thGordons
add pics
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40 minutes ago, 4thGordons said:

I missed this.

The Bolt bodies remained the same throughout the production of the MkIII/MkIII* as did the bolt head, firing pin(very minor variations), spring etc.

However there were a couple of patterns of cocking piece on the rear of the bolt

The original pattern was rounded with an oval cross section, as a manufacturing simplification a slab sided grooved version was approved during the war (from @1916 on) and is common - this type was also produced in WWII as a replacement part. There are also several Indian post WWII variants with single (or no) grooves.

However, here (good eye @AOK4!) it looks like the bolt has been fitted with a cocking piece from a No4 (WWII vintage) Rifle.

Here is the original type (rounded)

DSC_8616.JPG.db855948f47e2f8ec293b94853815456.JPG

DSC_8617.JPG.21a4ddd8cd050b3cb36e7da58f9d197b.JPG

The slab sided MkIII* rifle cocking piece looks like this (note flat top)

DSC_8614.JPG.c2846ff2f0846f85809e71f8b80ae94e.JPG

DSC_8615.JPG.bdb4d5d326df17a9f21a72f0003fab2c.JPG

The No4 MkI/I* cocking piece looks like this (note rounded/domed top) and this appears to be what has been fitted here.

DSC_8619.JPG.0d076effcc990d785aa844c683e2a2cf.JPG

 

DSC_8620.JPG.8da67597c2bcd1f93d1878588dd0ed66.JPG

 

Mine is the slab ,16306960415386850872664109507695.jpg.2dd0628d31838f75568321b883a44983.jpg

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I think yours is actually the No4 (WWII vintage) cocking piece, which is not really correct for the MkIII but do show up like this -- look at the top.

If you look from behind here is a comparison:

DSC_8621.JPG.62b6c9a34e95e563cc0be058c6fa1b45.JPG

 

the WWI and later vintage cocking piece for the SMLE MkIII/III (later known as the No1 MkIII* ) looks like this (flat top)

DSC_8623.JPG.4c5fe33b378469c53914aa1781bec519.JPG

 

the cocking piece for the WWI No4 MkI/I* rifle (domed top) -- this is what I think you have fitted based on the pics you have posted.

DSC_8622.JPG.2b5db82a738e3cf50db1882b76b9af50.JPG

 

Chris

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42 minutes ago, 4thGordons said:

I think yours is actually the No4 (WWII vintage) cocking piece, which is not really correct for the MkIII but do show up like this -- look at the top.

If you look from behind here is a comparison:

DSC_8621.JPG.62b6c9a34e95e563cc0be058c6fa1b45.JPG

 

the WWI and later vintage cocking piece for the SMLE MkIII/III (later known as the No1 MkIII* ) looks like this (flat top)

DSC_8623.JPG.4c5fe33b378469c53914aa1781bec519.JPG

 

the cocking piece for the WWI No4 MkI/I* rifle (domed top) -- this is what I think you have fitted based on the pics you have posted.

DSC_8622.JPG.2b5db82a738e3cf50db1882b76b9af50.JPG

 

Chris

I see,well you know it's good to know these little things ! I've already learned so much about these rifles! So you think my cocking piece has been replaced by whatever some could find or did know the difference?

 

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3 minutes ago, Christopher Eubanks said:

I see,well you know it's good to know these little things ! I've already learned so much about these rifles! So you think my cocking piece has been replaced by whatever some could find or did know the difference?

 

I think maybe someone may have used pieces from different rifles over the years

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1 hour ago, Christopher Eubanks said:

I think maybe someone may have used pieces from different rifles over the years

I have a similar cobbled-together Lee in .22 calibre. Some years ago I asked about it here. It may be of interest:

 

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6 hours ago, 4thGordons said:

I think yours is actually the No4 (WWII vintage) cocking piece, which is not really correct for the MkIII but do show up like this -- look at the top.

If you look from behind here is a comparison:

DSC_8621.JPG.62b6c9a34e95e563cc0be058c6fa1b45.JPG

 

the WWI and later vintage cocking piece for the SMLE MkIII/III (later known as the No1 MkIII* ) looks like this (flat top)

DSC_8623.JPG.4c5fe33b378469c53914aa1781bec519.JPG

 

the cocking piece for the WWI No4 MkI/I* rifle (domed top) -- this is what I think you have fitted based on the pics you have posted.

DSC_8622.JPG.2b5db82a738e3cf50db1882b76b9af50.JPG

 

Chris

Cocking piece on my NRF with EFD marking so not a No4IMG_20210904_134823.jpg.41f48c63e1b04ba0dd42ee09edb49201.jpg

IMG_20210904_135532.jpg

IMG_20210904_135110.jpg

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Just now, 5thBatt said:

Cocking piece on my NRF with EFD marking so not a No4IMG_20210904_134823.jpg.41f48c63e1b04ba0dd42ee09edb49201.jpg

 

 

Hmmmm wow -- so errr......that's a totally new one on me! I have at least one with a similar cocking piece which I always thought was a No4 one that had been fitted -- I will now have to hunt it down and check for markings

I just did a quick run through all the standard refs and LOCs etc and I don't see any mention of this pattern at all!

 Is there any indication on your NRF that it had a WWII refurb?  or an S273 on the cocking piece?

It appears every day is a school day.....

 

 

 

 

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5 minutes ago, Christopher Eubanks said:

Here's the bolt from my mklll* ,or whatever you determine that it is or was! 16307213181414247675065910745143.jpg.50ddc41c8288c67ec2fcf98e9586aba7.jpg16307216994028005186545607401213.jpg.fcba0ee1e0dde6f91b0ec4a96d52ef57.jpg

That last one is upside down,sorry

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Well I just dived into the safe and turned up two more!

These were both WWI vintage rifles but they were both refurbed/converted in India in the 1933 (.410) and 1940 (S/L)

DSC_8629.jpg.cdfbfa95370788ea208a794dd8fc2175.jpg

One converted to a .303 S/L and one converted to a .410 Musket - mine appear to have Ishapore marks on them and Ishapore did not produce No4 rifles either (although did refinish them)

.410 boltDSC_8625.jpg.2884b7312cadaaffb48b07166cd70de1.jpg

DSC_8626.jpg.5290a9bb5427eeea764ea3362d06df7e.jpg

.303 S/L bolt

DSC_8628.jpg.a14264a089eebe896f0754887110649c.jpg

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8 minutes ago, 4thGordons said:

Well I just dived into the safe and turned up two more!

These were both WWI vintage rifles but they were both refurbed/converted in India in the 1933 (.410) and 1940 (S/L)

DSC_8629.jpg.cdfbfa95370788ea208a794dd8fc2175.jpg

One converted to a .303 S/L and one converted to a .410 Musket - mine appear to have Ishapore marks on them and Ishapore did not produce No4 rifles either (although did refinish them)

.410 boltDSC_8625.jpg.2884b7312cadaaffb48b07166cd70de1.jpg

DSC_8626.jpg.5290a9bb5427eeea764ea3362d06df7e.jpg

.303 S/L bolt

DSC_8628.jpg.a14264a089eebe896f0754887110649c.jpg

Brain teaser!

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14 minutes ago, Christopher Eubanks said:

Here's the bolt from my mklll* ,or whatever you determine that it is or was! 16307216994028005186545607401213.jpg.fcba0ee1e0dde6f91b0ec4a96d52ef57.jpg

Can you read what that stamp is? N? over a 3 digit number -- this might help.

So yes, yours is a Short, Magazine Lee-Enfield MkIII* - which by WWII was known as the Rifle, No1 MkIII* (the terminology changed in the 1920s)

The point of interest here is the particular form of the cocking knob on the back of the bolt (it is rather "angels on the head of a pin" stuff and probably not of any great interest except to rather specialized Enfield collectors, however that would include me on a low level at least!)

I indicated that the cocking piece on your rifle was of the pattern fitted to the later WWII No4 rifle  and did not conform to the standard WWI patterns (there are two) and suggested that may not be "correct"  (or may be a later addition/replacement)

However it now appears that this pattern may have been produced for the MkIII rifle also, possibly earlier - the questions this raises is of course where, when and by whom? The EFD stamp on @5thBatt's rifle is the key example.

Chris

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6 minutes ago, 4thGordons said:

Can you read what that stamp is? N? over a 3 digit number -- this might help.

So yes, yours is a Short, Magazine Lee-Enfield MkIII* - which by WWII was known as the Rifle, No1 MkIII* (the terminology changed in the 1920s)

The point of interest here is the particular form of the cocking knob on the back of the bolt (it is rather "angels on the head of a pin" stuff and probably not of any great interest except to rather specialized Enfield collectors, however that would include me on a low level at least!)

I indicated that the cocking piece on your rifle was of the pattern fitted to the later WWII No4 rifle  and did not conform to the standard WWI patterns (there are two) and suggested that may not be "correct"  (or may be a later addition/replacement)

However it now appears that this pattern may have been produced for the MkIII rifle also, possibly earlier - the questions this raises is of course where, when and by whom? The EFD stamp on @5thBatt's rifle is the key example.

Chris

The picture is upside down sorry,it's EFD 

JN 

It appears I don't have the best lighting for those smaller ones! ***

 

 

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