Ww1 irish guards shoulder titles?

[Grovetown]

9 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

One Grenadier Guard with slip on title on his shoulder strap and one with coloured, curved title (the latter 3rd Battalion).

 

 

 

The title with the rounded ends is later, unlike the square ended ones of our period of interest*.

The auction house responsible for this image has a decidedly mixed reputation - only matched by one in the wider Glos region - regarding the authenticity of its lots.

Given that, this piece is, at best, later or, at worst - he says euphemistically - a 'display item'. 

*That said, the IWM has a 1940 ptn GG battledress with square-ended titles, which means one of two things. They were 'worn out', or - the IWM not being entirely on top of its subject matter these days - it's a 'put together'.

[FROGSMILE]

27 minutes ago, Grovetown said:

The title with the rounded ends is later, unlike the square ended ones of our period of interest*.

The auction house responsible for this image has a decidedly mixed reputation - only matched by one in the wider Glos region - regarding the authenticity of its lots.

Given that, this piece is, at best, later or, at worst - he says euphemistically - a 'display item'. 

*That said, the IWM has a 1940 ptn GG battledress with square-ended titles, which means one of two things. They were 'worn out', or - the IWM not being entirely on top of its subject matter these days - it's a 'put together'.

Yes, I had always understood the square ended version to be the correct one for 1914, not least because it was introduced in that form along with the Coldstream and Scots Guards to go with early 1902 service dress.  Indeed I explain that in the uniformology series I’m currently working on with a collaborator.  What threw me a little, GT, is that I have seen just one photo with WW1 provenance that had a rounded end, and then subsequently the auction house piece shown (albeit that it’s provenance is unconfirmed). There are definitely cases where subsequent patterns are worn side by side with previous ones, as we know from images where gilding metal and cloth were worn simultaneously in the same unit.  What seems positive is that at some point the rounded end became the norm for Foot Guards, undoubtedly because it created a convenient differential from those used by line regiments.  Nevertheless, I haven’t yet found a definitive date when the changeover took place. It has long been a pretty much standard policy to wear out obsolescent items alongside new providing there is no change in unit title.  The vast majority of WW1 photos show the squared off end.

 

 

Edited 7 September , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[trooper23]

On 04/09/2021 at 18:00, FROGSMILE said:

This shows the band in 1915 in France still wearing gilding metal titles.

I realise this is strictly off topic but I was struck by how old several of the front row individuals are. Was this usual in 1915?

[FROGSMILE]

3 hours ago, trooper23 said:

I realise this is strictly off topic but I was struck by how old several of the front row individuals are. Was this usual in 1915?

Yes it’s not really unusual.  There were two types of band at that time, Staff Bands and Regimental Bands.  The former were ‘around’ 50 strong and the latter around 37 (figures from memory).  All the Foot Guards regiments had Staff Bands.  The men in these bands did not join as soldiers, but as musicians/bandsmen and on entirely different terms and conditions of service.  Some joined as boy entrants in accordance with the school leaving age (not infrequently the son’s of bandsmen), and others were orphans from industrial schools where they had already learned music.  Others joined as young adults.  Once in the band the vast majority seemed to stay for life.  In addition to playing music at regimental events, bands with battalions stationed ‘at home’ (in Britain) maintained a full programme of public events and would often be seen on Sundays especially playing concerts in municipal bandstands.  High standards were maintained via courses of instruction at the Army’s school of music in Kneller Hall and only those of the best quality were assigned to the Staff Bands.  Those who showed special talent were sent on the Bandmaster, or Director of Music course at the school and, once qualified, they could apply for vacant positions in other regiments.  In this way it was not uncommon for such men to serve with as many as three different bands in the very latter part of their service.  On operations and if deployed the bands would generally alternate between acting as unit bearers, to assist with stretcher carrying, and playing music to keep up morale.  In the case of the Foot Guards some bands containing younger men were sent on service whereas those maintained in London, Windsor and elsewhere for public duties were comprised largely of older reservists and men unfit for front line service.  For a long time the Foot Guards operated a system of shorter service with the colours and a longer term on the reserve in comparison with their line regiment counterparts where the balance was reversed.  This meant that on the outbreak of war the Guards had a larger than usual regular reserve to call upon, including some musicians.

Edited 17 September , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[trooper23]

Thanks very much for the detailed response - apologies for the delay in replying (I was busy supervising Covid vaccine delivery).

I appreciate the aged element of the band, my comment was I was surprised to see them actually deployed to France in 1915; would have though they would have been left back in the UK. I cannot see some of the men depicted being much use on the stretcher bearer front!

[FROGSMILE]

3 hours ago, trooper23 said:

Thanks very much for the detailed response - apologies for the delay in replying (I was busy supervising Covid vaccine delivery).

I appreciate the aged element of the band, my comment was I was surprised to see them actually deployed to France in 1915; would have though they would have been left back in the UK. I cannot see some of the men depicted being much use on the stretcher bearer front!

Yes I agree about the stretcher bearing and I’m glad that you pointed out the questionable aspect of the photo concerned.  I took as read the caption that came with the image on the web, but scrutinising it again in light of your comment I’m not sure that the date and venue are accurate.  Unless it was somewhere like Paris for a special occasion and/or later in the war, it would be odd for them to be dressed in the way they are and with a rather elderly Guards officer at centre.  Perhaps it was actually in Britain, I don’t know, I posted it purely because of the shoulder title aspect.

Edited 21 September , 2021 by FROGSMILE