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Unknown (Naval?) Cap ID?


MikeS0000
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Yes, the Brodrick cap was quite similar to the seaman's cap.  I have several RPPC's w that show the rating's cap being worn 'flat aback', it was very common in that time.

I expect the Army OR's wore their Brodricks similar (the RM Gunner 3rd left standing & another 5th from right standing) but I doubt it was authorized & a man could get himself doing fatigues or something similar as a result.

Thats a nice photo, shows quite a mix of headgear. Would those OR's wearing the turned up hat rims Aussies?

Edited by RNCVR
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Dont wish to get too far off the original OP question - but what is the wool cap the OR to the left of the Gunner(his right) I mentioned in above post - what is significance of this headgear?

Edited by RNCVR
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I think I have posted pictures of this cap before but just took some fresh pictures.  Regards, Paul.

Details in cap thought to be The Empire House J Burke-Royal Naval Outfitter-Edinburgh Road- Adjoining Row? ....Portsmouth.

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Edited by Wardog
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That's a really great looking cap Paul, thanks for posting! I expect the cap ribbon is quite rare as well.

They are in beautiful condition.

I had not seen your previous posts on this cap.

Best.....

Bryan

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3 hours ago, RNCVR said:

Yes, the Brodrick cap was quite similar to the seaman's cap.  I have several RPPC's w that show the rating's cap being worn 'flat aback', it was very common in that time.

I expect the Army OR's wore their Brodricks similar (the RM Gunner 3rd left standing & another 5th from right standing) but I doubt it was authorized & a man could get himself doing fatigues or something similar as a result.

Thats a nice photo, shows quite a mix of headgear. Would those OR's wearing the turned up hat rims Aussies?

No the turned up hats were issued to the British Army (plus auxiliaries and some excellent Colonial contingents) during the 2nd Anglo/Boer War and after the war there were so many left in clothing stocks that until 1905 they remained the regular headdress for wear in the field with the 1902 pattern 'drab' (brownish khaki) service dress (SD) that was universal throughout WW1.  In officers' 'Dress Regulations' they were known as 'Terai Hats' (a South African term), but for other ranks 'Clothing Regulations' they were designated as Hats Universal Service Dress (or something similar) and colloquially Hats Slouch (Slouch Hats).  Interestingly the word 'slouch' refers to: 'stand, move, or sit in a lazy, drooping way' (see man on right) .  The link is probably that once wet, and sat on a few times, the hat very much looked like that.

Boer War MI.jpg

Edited by FROGSMILE
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Thanks Froggie, I might have a photo of Canadian  SA War OR's wearing slouch hats, I have to have a look.

 

 

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35 minutes ago, RNCVR said:

Thanks Froggie, I might have a photo of Canadian  SA War OR's wearing slouch hats, I have to have a look.

 

 

Yes you will have I'm sure.  The Canadians often indented the tops like the Mounties.

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Hello Bryan. Glad you like the cap with its Canada link. I would assume it is just pre war.  The 'stiffener' around the inside seems to be more than a wire, having a depth of a bit less than 10mm. Regards, Paul.

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3 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

Yes you will have I'm sure.  The Canadians often indented the tops like the Mounties.

Yes Froggie, the Canadians are wearing Stetson hats, I will be away till Monday so will get a photo on here sometime after I return.

You will like the photo, it's very interesting.

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30 minutes ago, Wardog said:

Hello Bryan. Glad you like the cap with its Canada link. I would assume it is just pre war.  The 'stiffener' around the inside seems to be more than a wire, having a depth of a bit less than 10mm. Regards, Paul.

 

Yes, Paul, mine is very similar to your HMS Dominion cap, no interior 'stiffener' or wire. I did not measure the depth but it's very close to yours. Nothing to ID original owner inside either.

The Dominion cap ribbon is deffo pre 1WW - 1WW & early interwar period.

 

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OK Gents!

I pulled the cap originally posted, and there is no wire in the top. It is just wacked out of shape from being stored for.... however long. Don't know if that is significant, but I do have a question,

How do I get it back into correct shape? She is pretty stiff all around.

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Mike, you require a hat blocker but I doubt they even exist anymore. I had a couple of them yrs ago.

I use a mannequin head, if you have one they do the job. Wet the rim of the cap (dip the rim in a basin of warm water for around 4-5 mins) then place cap firmly over the head, then let it sit for several days until it's good & dry, then remove.  If it's still 'warped' repeat the process.

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Memories revived of walking about in wet new boots or with a damp beret on for as long as possible to get the desired shape.  Regards ,Paul.

PS just looked at info in Campaign 1915 by Chris Pollendine which shows a cap on page 206 worn by a man in the period 1915-1919. It states crown stiffened internally by a bamboo hoop. the lining being plain black drill. It says it is typical of an Admiralty supplied cap of the period, so perhaps stiffened caps were more common during the war. I would love to have further books to cover  the years 1916, 1917, and 1918, but I doubt that will happen now. Anyone know any more about this? I see Chris has sold some items online today. Regards, Paul.

Edited by Wardog
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8 hours ago, Wardog said:

Memories revived of walking about in wet new boots or with a damp beret on for as long as possible to get the desired shape.  Regards ,Paul.

PS just looked at info in Campaign 1915 by Chris Pollendine which shows a cap on page 206 worn by a man in the period 1915-1919. It states crown stiffened internally by a bamboo hoop. the lining being plain black drill. It says it is typical of an Admiralty supplied cap of the period, so perhaps stiffened caps were more common during the war. I would love to have further books to cover  the years 1916, 1917, and 1918, but I doubt that will happen now. Anyone know any more about this? I see Chris has sold some items online today. Regards, Paul.

Thanks Paul!

I dragged out a powerful magnet to be sure, but not a tug. It does feel like there may well be a bamboo hoop in there. The elliptical manner in which it has settled at the top looks like it could be a warped hoop. Oh, maybe on backwards?

Wet boots are one thing, a damp beret..... :mellow:

Best regards!

- Mike

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Edited by MikeS0000
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On 19/09/2021 at 07:13, RNCVR said:

Mike, you require a hat blocker but I doubt they even exist anymore. I had a couple of them yrs ago.

I use a mannequin head, if you have one they do the job. Wet the rim of the cap (dip the rim in a basin of warm water for around 4-5 mins) then place cap firmly over the head, then let it sit for several days until it's good & dry, then remove.  If it's still 'warped' repeat the process.

Got it! Thank you Bryan! A process that I can follow.... :-) (got your name corrected - oh, the old eyes... )

Edited by MikeS0000
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Mike, to straighten up the top (crown) of the cap turn it interior facing up & stack some heavy books around the circumference of the cap for a few days, that will assist in taking out some of the 'warps' in the cap.

There is likely some kind of circular stiffener around the interior of the crown but as I have never seen a cap taken apart I am uncertain exactly what kind of material it might be made from but I doubt steel as these caps were worn in all weather's including rain & it would not take to long to rust. It could well be bamboo or some sort of firm material that would hold its shape over time.

After you restored the cap pls post some more photos. 

Best......Bryan

Edited by RNCVR
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On 18/09/2021 at 15:23, FROGSMILE said:

Yes you will have I'm sure.  The Canadians often indented the tops like the Mounties.

 

I had not forgotten, here you are Froggie. These photos are quite rare, especially the Canadian Baseball team. Any Boer war photo of Canadians is quite rare as Canada did not have a big representation in that conflict. My man is standing at rear left & in front centre in the group shot in which they are wearing bandoliers.

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Very interesting to see, especially the baseball team!  Thank you for posting them Bryan. 
The lower photo is a particularly good view of the first pattern drab service dress.  It was a direct copy of the 7-button scarlet frock but in khaki.  I’d need to check but I think from memory it was the 1899 pattern. 

Edited by FROGSMILE
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Yes, that photo has to be very rare!  I have never seen a baseball team photo this early.  Baseball was very big in Canada & bigger in USA around that pre war period.

I dont know if there are any Baseball Forums but I think if there was it would attract considerable interest.  Notice the "theatre made"maple leaves on their shirts.

Here I something you might be able to assist me with - the soldier with the strange brimmed hat in second row, second from left, with his right arm/hand on his jaw, what kind of hat is that ? Unofficial?  I thought I saw reference to one of these types of hats worn during 1WW or prior in another post but now cannot recall what topic, it was a couple days ago when I was in Ottawa.

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To try to remain on topic -  this for Mike - here is an RCN/RCNVR cap of the type that I wore when in RCN during NE training in early '60's. Its very similar to yours, a little better shape & this one retains its original date on the inside crown.

 

MIKE ,I apologize for going off topic in my previous post concerning the Boar war hats worn by Canadians in that conflict !

 

Best....Bryan

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1 hour ago, RNCVR said:

Yes, that photo has to be very rare!  I have never seen a baseball team photo this early.  Baseball was very big in Canada & bigger in USA around that pre war period.

I dont know if there are any Baseball Forums but I think if there was it would attract considerable interest.  Notice the "theatre made"maple leaves on their shirts.

Here I something you might be able to assist me with - the soldier with the strange brimmed hat in second row, second from left, with his right arm/hand on his jaw, what kind of hat is that ? Unofficial?  I thought I saw reference to one of these types of hats worn during 1WW or prior in another post but now cannot recall what topic, it was a couple days ago when I was in Ottawa.

I’m sorry Bryan, I can’t help you with that rather strange looking hat you mention in your final sentence.  To me it’s reminiscent of a cartoon style Leprechaun’s hat and certainly not something serious.

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