MikeS0000 Posted 30 August , 2021 Share Posted 30 August , 2021 Hi Folks - Picked this up on eBay, not much of a dent in the wallet, but not sure what, if anything, it may be. Perhaps a 1920s Flapper's Cap!! Anyhow, if anyone has an idea as to its origins, use or Time Period it will be much appreciated. Best Regards! - Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 30 August , 2021 Share Posted 30 August , 2021 (edited) It’s a Royal Navy ‘ratings cap’ without a ‘tally’ (ship’s name) fitted. They don’t appear to have changed significantly between WW1 and WW2, but @RNCVR will be able to advise. At that time a white cover was only added in the tropics I think. NB. It appears to have belonged to F C Burns who was accommodated in ‘number 15 Mess’ in the ship’s divisions. Edited 30 August , 2021 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RNCVR Posted 30 August , 2021 Share Posted 30 August , 2021 Burns cap appears to be of 2WW vintage to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 30 August , 2021 Share Posted 30 August , 2021 4 hours ago, RNCVR said: Burns cap appears to be of 2WW vintage to me. Are there features that can help to tell the difference Bryan? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RNCVR Posted 30 August , 2021 Share Posted 30 August , 2021 It has the appearance of a 2WW (& into the post war) period. I wore one of these caps in Sea Cadets in late 50's & subsequently in New Entry training when the RCN was trying to use up wartime stocks, when we graduated we were issued the white top caps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 30 August , 2021 Share Posted 30 August , 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, RNCVR said: It has the appearance of a 2WW (& into the post war) period. I wore one of these caps in Sea Cadets in late 50's & subsequently in New Entry training when the RCN was trying to use up wartime stocks, when we graduated we were issued the white top caps. Yes understood, but what is it that precludes it from being a WW1 period cap given that there seems to be no clear visual difference? i.e. is it completely impossible that it’s from WW1? I ask for the clarity of the OP. Edited 30 August , 2021 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff293 Posted 31 August , 2021 Share Posted 31 August , 2021 The cap of F C Burns who was in number 15 Mess, this was more than likely a shore establishment as ships mess decks are numbered after their location in the ship i.e. 3f2 No 3 deck, F section and then if it's on the port or starboard side. All compartments in the ship numbered are like this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 31 August , 2021 Share Posted 31 August , 2021 3 minutes ago, Geoff293 said: The cap of F C Burns who was in number 15 Mess, this was more than likely a shore establishment as ships mess decks are numbered after their location in the ship i.e. 3f2 No 3 deck, F section and then if it's on the port or starboard side. All compartments in the ship numbered are like this. Thank you Geoff, that’s very interesting. It’s a pity we don’t have his full name as someone like @horatio2would probably have been able to trace him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horatio2 Posted 31 August , 2021 Share Posted 31 August , 2021 7 hours ago, FROGSMILE said: It’s a pity we don’t have his full name as someone like @horatio2would probably have been able to trace him. A very long shot indeed but there is only one FC Burns in the WW1 RN, RNR and RNVR medal rolls: Francis Charles BURNS, ON J.5783 from Bootle, Lancs. He joined as a Boy in 1909 and served as an able seaman and pensioner until August 1939 when he was discharged to pension and 'permanently unfit for naval service', just missing WW2 service. https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D6857990 and https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C14796194 If the cap fits ........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 31 August , 2021 Share Posted 31 August , 2021 30 minutes ago, horatio2 said: A very long shot indeed but there is only one FC Burns in the WW1 RN, RNR and RNVR medal rolls: Francis Charles BURNS, ON J.5783 from Bootle, Lancs. He joined as a Boy in 1909 and served as an able seaman and pensioner until August 1939 when he was discharged to pension and 'permanently unfit for naval service', just missing WW2 service. https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D6857990 and https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C14796194 If the cap fits ........ He seems like a good candidate. Did he complete his service as an old hand in a stone frigate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horatio2 Posted 31 August , 2021 Share Posted 31 August , 2021 His last ship (in 1933) was the battleship HMS RODNEY and he was then discharged from Devonport barracks (VIVID) to pension. Recalled as a pensioner on 31 JUly 1939, thereafter he was, as suggested, in Devonport barracks (DRAKE) for his short service before discharge PUNS a month later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 31 August , 2021 Share Posted 31 August , 2021 (edited) 49 minutes ago, horatio2 said: His last ship (in 1933) was the battleship HMS RODNEY and he was then discharged from Devonport barracks (VIVID) to pension. Recalled as a pensioner on 31 JUly 1939, thereafter he was, as suggested, in Devonport barracks (DRAKE) for his short service before discharge PUNS a month later. Thank you. Perhaps he was in No 15 Mess at Devonport then, it sort of fits. Edited 31 August , 2021 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RNCVR Posted 1 September , 2021 Share Posted 1 September , 2021 On 30/08/2021 at 13:17, FROGSMILE said: Are there features that can help to tell the difference Bryan? Have a couple shots of 1WW era ratings caps in my data base so will post below. 2 of the caps have white detachable cap cover. The caps of that time frame are less rigid than the later issue caps of the post 1WW & 2WW period. More kind of "floppy" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 1 September , 2021 Share Posted 1 September , 2021 Thank you Bryan, yes I can see what you mean. Less structured and perhaps not quite so tall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RNCVR Posted 1 September , 2021 Share Posted 1 September , 2021 Yes, the 1WW period caps are much flatter looking, more like a pancake. They also dont have a stiffener material or wire around the crown of the cap, whereas the later 2WW period caps do have either or both of these. But you have to realize that many companies were contracted to manufacture these caps so there will be some variations in their appearance. Also naval outfitters had their own caps manufactured altho these were usually for officers, ratings tended to obtain theirs from "slops" - ie: Pussers stores. I am certain you knw the first photo you have posted above is that of John Travers Cornwall VC. The 2nd photo of the RNVR rating I think might be more interwar period judging by the uniform tunic, silk, & lanyard layout. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 1 September , 2021 Share Posted 1 September , 2021 1 hour ago, RNCVR said: Yes, the 1WW period caps are much flatter looking, more like a pancake. They also dont have a stiffener material or wire around the crown of the cap, whereas the later 2WW period caps do have either or both of these. But you have to realize that many companies were contracted to manufacture these caps so there will be some variations in their appearance. Also naval outfitters had their own caps manufactured altho these were usually for officers, ratings tended to obtain theirs from "slops" - ie: Pussers stores. I am certain you knw the first photo you have posted above is that of John Travers Cornwall VC. The 2nd photo of the RNVR rating I think might be more interwar period judging by the uniform tunic, silk, & lanyard layout. Yes I knew it was 'Boy Cornwell' and have posted about him in the past. I don't know for sure what vintage the other fellow is, but it appeared within a specified WW1 search (albeit I know that's not infallible). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff293 Posted 2 September , 2021 Share Posted 2 September , 2021 Francis Charles BURNS, ON J.5783, I thought I had seen O/N's like this before as I had seen them on the HMS Ganges museum Pbase (Photos dated) I checked on the National archives under ADM188/658/5783 and found he was at Ganges from 20th Oct 09 (16 yrs) as a boy second class to May 10 Boy first class - (a long time before I got there in the early 70's) he became an Ordinary seaman 10th Oct 11 and an Able seaman 11th July 12, it doesn't look like he was promoted an more after that. If the photo below was taken before May he may be on here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 2 September , 2021 Share Posted 2 September , 2021 Very interesting Geoff, thank you for posting the details. One of my own paternal great uncles was a Boy First Class in 1914 on the Iron-Duke Class HMS Emperor of India, so it’s always of interest to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wardog Posted 3 September , 2021 Share Posted 3 September , 2021 (edited) I have a cap which looks similar to the RNVR image. It does seem to have a stiffening wire- were such caps private purchase- If so it sounds like private purchase caps were uncommon? Tally is HMS Dominion. I'll post images if of interest. Regards, Paul. Edited 3 September , 2021 by Wardog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RNCVR Posted 3 September , 2021 Share Posted 3 September , 2021 Yes, could well be private purchase, some of the private purchase caps obtained from naval outfitters of the period were much better made than the 'slops' issue. Same with ratings uniforms, better made & a better fit. These tailored uniforms were referred to as 'tiddley'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeS0000 Posted 12 September , 2021 Author Share Posted 12 September , 2021 Thanks very much gents! Great info that will reside in the interior of the cap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KizmeRD Posted 17 September , 2021 Share Posted 17 September , 2021 Even when caps had stiffeners, it became the thing to remove them to allow a more floppy appearance, in the belief that this was more ‘salty’. Easier to get away with this look when at sea, and less so when in large shore establishments. MB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RNCVR Posted 18 September , 2021 Share Posted 18 September , 2021 Another thing with seaman rating's caps was the habit, usually when ashore, of wearing caps "flat aback". This was a big no no & could get a rating in the rattle if he was picked up by the Ship's Corporals (police). But it was a common occurance in the pre & post war navy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RNCVR Posted 18 September , 2021 Share Posted 18 September , 2021 The upper rating is a Gunnery Armourer, & the lower photo ratings are Seaman Gunners 1st class - the rating holding the cigarette a PO2 - & the rating playing the banjo being a Captain of Gun 2nd class. I expect they put their caps on correctly after the photo was taken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 18 September , 2021 Share Posted 18 September , 2021 (edited) Very interesting Bryan, I had noticed that flat aback style before, but not realised it was popular. Interestingly some young soldiers seem to have emulated the style when ‘going large’ whilst obliged to wear the Brodrick cap that was so similar to a RN Rating’s headdress. Photo courtesy of Toby Brayley of this forum. A lot of them were influenced when on troopships when soldiers had the opportunity to mingle with ratings, but also in joint army and naval garrisons such as Plymouth/Devonport and Portsmouth. Edited 18 September , 2021 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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