'Death Penny' for Pte Arthur Edward Williams - G/4560, 2nd Bn The Queens - Royal West Surrey Regmt - unearthed

[NigelS]

Not an unusual event, and probably a longshot, but should a relative be looking, a local newspaper carried the story recently of how a gardener dug up the 'Death Penny' for Private Arthur Edward Williams  (G/4560, 2nd Bn, The Queens - Royal West Surrey Regiment) in the Mayford area of Woking, Surrey  which he would like to re-unite with family members.  The story and contact details are given in this article https://www.wokingnewsandmail.co.uk/?p=31640

NigelS

[Michelle Young]

Might also be worth posting in the British Medal Forum? What a find. My late father found a medal in the garden of his bungalow some years ago, and my nephew found an Old Contemptibles lapel badge in my father in laws garden. 

[david murdoch]

Going by pension record his widow only claimed for one son.

From family trees on Ancestry.

Sidney Charles Williams
1913–1932
BIRTH 24 SEP 1913 • Southwark, London DEATH SEP1932 • Lambeth, London, England

The other son was 

George Edward Williams
1912–
BIRTH 9 SEP 1912. • Reg. Lambeth, London SE.DEATH Unknown

Hetty Marie Louise Kavanagh
1886–1952
BIRTH 3 DEC 1886. • Lambeth, London.*

DEATH DEC 1952. • Reg. Camberwell, London, SE. *

George was born just a couple of months after she married Arthur in 1912, but likely he died in infancy or as a child, hence not on the pension record. Sidney died fairly young and Hetty never remarried so unlikely any direct descendants. Edit. Baptism record George dated 30/10/1912 gives his abode as "The Infirmary", hints he was possibly sick or premature and did not make it. Probable death record for him December 1912 in Camberwell.

Certainly someone interested and researched them already. I can copy the article link to the keeper of the family tree.

Edited 27 August , 2021 by david murdoch
added information

[Andrew Upton]

15 hours ago, NigelS said:

Not an unusual event, and probably a longshot, but should a relative be looking, a local newspaper carried the story recently of how a gardener dug up the 'Death Penny' for Private Arthur Edward Williams  (G/4560, 2nd Bn, The Queens - Royal West Surrey Regiment) in the Mayford area of Woking, Surrey  which he would like to re-unite with family members.  The story and contact details are given in this article https://www.wokingnewsandmail.co.uk/?p=31640

NigelS

 

There are at least five confirmed casualties on the CWGC by the name of Arthur Edward Williams, plus numerous Arthur E. and A.E. Williams that could also be possibles. It's worth keeping in mind there is no way Private G/4560 The Queen's can be established as the man to whom the plaque was originally named with any certainty...

 

https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/737325/ARTHUR%20EDWARD%20WILLIAMS/

 

PRIVATE ARTHUR EDWARD WILLIAMS

Service Number: G/4650

Regiment & Unit/Ship

The Queen's (Royal West Surrey Regiment) 2nd Bn.

Date of Death: Died 25 September 1915

Buried or commemorated at

LOOS MEMORIAL

Panel 13 to 15.

France

 

https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/493180/ARTHUR%20EDWARD%20WILLIAMS/

 

PRIVATE ARTHUR EDWARD WILLIAMS

Service Number: G/65418

Regiment & Unit/Ship

Royal Fusiliers 4th Bn.

Date of Death: Died 05 August 1918

Age 35 years old

Buried or commemorated at

SANDPITS BRITISH CEMETERY, FOUQUEREUIL

III. G. 6.

France

 

https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/821925/ARTHUR%20EDWARD%20WILLIAMS/

 

PRIVATE ARTHUR EDWARD WILLIAMS

Service Number: 12112

Regiment & Unit/Ship

King's Own Yorkshire Light Infantry 9th Bn.

Date of Death: Died 01 July 1916

Age 22 years old

Buried or commemorated at

THIEPVAL MEMORIAL

Pier and Face 11 C and 12 A.

France

 

https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/1750295/ARTHUR%20EDWARD%20WILLIAMS/

 

GUNNER ARTHUR EDWARD WILLIAMS

Service Number: 194727

Regiment & Unit/Ship

Royal Field Artillery "B" Bty. 112th Bde.

Date of Death: Died 03 October 1918

Age 20 years old

Buried or commemorated at

VIS-EN-ARTOIS MEMORIAL

Panel 3 and 4.

France

 

https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/399251/ARTHUR%20EDWARD%20WILLIAMS/

 

GUNNER ARTHUR EDWARD WILLIAMS

Service Number: 3559

Regiment & Unit/Ship

Australian Field Artillery 10th Bde.

Date of Death: Died 22 February 1919

 Age 22 years old

Buried or commemorated at

BROOKWOOD MILITARY CEMETERY

IV. I. 7.

United Kingdom

[NigelS]

Thanks for raising this point Andrew. Must admit that not being a collector of such, I'd forgotten that Death Pennies, unlike medals, don't contain a service number & regiment details, so fully agree with your comments.  I'll email the paper with the details of this thread with the hope that they'll pass it on .  Either a wrong assumption has been made, or there's the outside possibly  his details were engraved on, post issue, by the family and its subsequent interment?  Are there any examples of additional personal details being added to Death Pennies by family members?

NigelS

[Andrew Upton]

3 hours ago, NigelS said:

Thanks for raising this point Andrew. Must admit that not being a collector of such, I'd forgotten that Death Pennies, unlike medals, don't contain a service number & regiment details, so fully agree with your comments.  I'll email the paper with the details of this thread with the hope that they'll pass it on .  Either a wrong assumption has been made, or there's the outside possibly  his details were engraved on, post issue, by the family and its subsequent interment?  Are there any examples of additional personal details being added to Death Pennies by family members?

 

The only extra engraved details I've seen added to plaques to record a provenance have been decidedly dodgy and very recently added... I get the impression from the article the guy who found it has gone for the attribution that best fits the geographical location the plaque was found (Mayford in Surrey = Royal West Surrey Regiment), but you could easily argue that Private G/65418 Royal Fusiliers for example is also a strong candidate with the NOK listed in London. Ultimately without the matching medals or some other strong evidence linking the location it was found to a specific descendant of a particular casualty it can only be speculated.

[david murdoch]

6 hours ago, Andrew Upton said:

 

The only extra engraved details I've seen added to plaques to record a provenance have been decidedly dodgy and very recently added... I get the impression from the article the guy who found it has gone for the attribution that best fits the geographical location the plaque was found (Mayford in Surrey = Royal West Surrey Regiment), but you could easily argue that Private G/65418 Royal Fusiliers for example is also a strong candidate with the NOK listed in London. Ultimately without the matching medals or some other strong evidence linking the location it was found to a specific descendant of a particular casualty it can only be speculated.

The article seemed pretty positive on which Arthur Edward Williams, but for sure could be an assumption. Looking more at his widow certainly stayed around Camberwell her whole life and is buried there. On 1939 register she was living at 4 Devonshire Mews, Camberwell and showing widowed  - she never remarried. She was living with one of  Arthur's brothers and his daughter. Going by the family trees another three of Arthur's brothers were also killed during the war. Looking at the survivors not seeing any obvious links to Woking.

Edited 28 August , 2021 by david murdoch

[NigelS]

9 hours ago, Andrew Upton said:

 

... I get the impression from the article the guy who found it has gone for the attribution that best fits the geographical location the plaque was found (Mayford in Surrey = Royal West Surrey Regiment), but you could easily argue that Private G/65418 Royal Fusiliers for example is also a strong candidate with the NOK listed in London. Ultimately without the matching medals or some other strong evidence linking the location it was found to a specific descendant of a particular casualty it can only be speculated.

A point I made in my email to the paper's editor, the fact that Private G4560 Arthur Edward Williams served with The Queens and lived in Camberwell  does improve the odds that this might be the man the plaque commemorated, but doesn't by any mean rule out other candidates of the same name.

The local paper article mentions that the land where the plaque was found was believed to have been woodland or part of a horticultural nursery. Old Maps indicate this to be partially true, the property is built on land which was - at least until more recently - adjacent to a large nursery, but the boundaries indicate that it may occupy what was originally a small holding rather than the adjacent nursery itself, with  a small pre Great War building within that plot. Post the GW (at least by 1934/35) several other buildings have appeared within a large part of the plot, with that part of it occupied by Chiltern Close today forming a garden (or maybe a smaller small holding!) for one of these properties - possibly, although its difficult to determine with any certainty, the original pre GW building.   So it's not impossible that the plaque may have come from one of these. Additionally, before infill development, the Chiltern Close plot was bordered by the large back garden of  a  pub which was around before the Great War so another possible source.  A further possibility, of course, might be the plaque was imported in soil or other material imported from elsewhere when the close was built.  Can't help wondering, if the plaque was buried intentionally, or even discarded, might his medals have been as well...

Interesting to note that the pension record posted by David M above carries a  'Noted for Novel' stamp, another mystery discussed here https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/275383-widows-pension-noted-for-novel/  (Glad I searched before getting round to opening a new topic, as this one had passed me by!)

NigelS

 

 

 

[bootneck]

There are three brothers on the town war memorial, Arthur, Ernest & Leonard Williams, the sons of Annie Williams and the step sons of Samuel Robert Tutt. They appear on both the 1901 & 1911 censuses. Samuel & Annie married about 1905 and had a son Robert [George] Tutt born 1905-6 who lived in Woking and the surrounding area most of his life. Ancestry has mis-transcribed Tutt as Lutt in the 1911 census. 

None of the brothers are shown with middle names but Leonard Williams is recorded on Find My Past as L H Williams in a transcript of recruits to the Coldstream Guards. Both Arthur & Ernest served with The Queen's.

[david murdoch]

On 02/09/2021 at 04:47, bootneck said:

There are three brothers on the town war memorial, Arthur, Ernest & Leonard Williams, the sons of Annie Williams and the step sons of Samuel Robert Tutt. They appear on both the 1901 & 1911 censuses. Samuel & Annie married about 1905 and had a son Robert [George] Tutt born 1905-6 who lived in Woking and the surrounding area most of his life. Ancestry has mis-transcribed Tutt as Lutt in the 1911 census. 

None of the brothers are shown with middle names but Leonard Williams is recorded on Find My Past as L H Williams in a transcript of recruits to the Coldstream Guards. Both Arthur & Ernest served with The Queen's.

From family tree the other brothers died were....

George Frederick Henry Williams 1882–1917

BIRTH 09 OCT 1882 • Camberwell, London, England DEATH 23 APR 1917 • France. (Arras Memorial)

Casualty Details | CWGC

Harry Montague Williams 1884–1916

BIRTH 13 APR 1884 • Camberwell, London, England DEATH 02 OCT 1916 • France. (Thiepval Memorial)

Casualty Details | CWGC

 

 

Edited 3 September , 2021 by david murdoch

[NigelS]

17 hours ago, bootneck said:

There are three brothers on the town war memorial, Arthur, Ernest & Leonard Williams, the sons of Annie Williams and the step sons of Samuel Robert Tutt. They appear on both the 1901 & 1911 censuses. Samuel & Annie married about 1905 and had a son Robert [George] Tutt born 1905-6 who lived in Woking and the surrounding area most of his life. Ancestry has mis-transcribed Tutt as Lutt in the 1911 census. 

None of the brothers are shown with middle names but Leonard Williams is recorded on Find My Past as L H Williams in a transcript of recruits to the Coldstream Guards. Both Arthur & Ernest served with The Queen's.

 

Are the Tutts shown as living anywhere in or near the Mayford area in the 1905 & 1911 censuses? 

Using FreeBMD to take the family history further (and possible inheritors of the plaque pre burial):

Marriages Dec 1934   
Tutt  Robert G                  Woolley     Surrey S.W.     2a    931
Woolley  Gladys R            Tutt             Surrey S.W     2a    931

They appear to have had one son:

Births Sep 1935 
Tutt   Frederick G             Woolley        Surrey N.W.     2a    540

Frederick appears to have married: 

Marriages Jun 1972  
TUTT  Frederick G             HORTON     Surrey N W     5g    730 

and it looks as if they might have had a daughter, but in Canterbury area

Births Sep 1949  
Tutt     Sally A     Horton     Canterbury     5b    369

NigelS

 

 

[bootneck]

Annie Williams and her sons lived at 6 Ireland Cottages, Board School Road, Maybury in 1901. According to Samuel Robert Tutt's service papers he married her in Guildford [Registration District?] in 1903 when he left the army and their son was born in 1906, They and the four sons were living at Kern Cottages, Anchor Hill, Knaphill, in 1911 and Samuel and Annie were living in Connaught Road, Brookwood in 1919.