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Uniform I.D


s.hibbitt
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Hi,

I'm wondering if anyone can tell me anything about the two uniforms please with  possible date, pre war ?

can see the back cap badge is a Leicester but can't work out the front one at all. 

Thank you. 

a27230ad-b761-417c-95fb-3d994503b883.jpg

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It’s an extremely poor reproduction of the original photo I’m afraid and instantly distorts when enlarged.  The original print would not be that bad as glass plate development was good with high resolution.  Unless you can get a better scan it’s unlikely that it will be possible to help with an ID.

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I can't make out the back row chaps badge at all, what makes you say he's a Leicester? Both badges are just blobs when I try to enlarge. Can you get a better scanned image please? 

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They’re both wearing ‘Cap, Service Dress, Pattern 1917’, and the chap at the back has a ‘belt, Infantry Equipment 1914’, so a wartime photo for sure.

Pete

 

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Thanks,  I can't really get it any clearer on here I'm afraid  but I no the back one is a Leicester badge. Pre war did the Territorial's have a uniform  ? 

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As long as you're happy that the top one is a Leicestershire Regiment badge, then that's fine.
Leicester badges are usually wider than they are tall, which isn't what I would guess looking at the picture.

In the image, that badge is about 10px wide and about 7px high.
To get a definite ID, I'd want a badge to be 100 x 100px.

If that's the best you can get, then we'll have to leave it at that.

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@s.hibbitt

Is anything known about the individuals in the picture? To me that looks like a wedding group, and possible even a double wedding, so if you know who married who, then you have a date.

The wedding certificate itself should show rank \and regiment corps under grooms occupation as a minimum - and potentially much more. Given the group set-up, there is also a chance that the soldier standing was one of the witnesses, which at least gives you a name to go with what you believe to be a Leicestershire Regiment capbadge.

The date also gives you the possibility of checking local papers for reports on the wedding, as well as a locality for a general check. I've seen a few newspaper reports over the years praising Mr. X or Mrs Y. for sending so many sons to fight which on closer inspection also include son-in-laws in arriving at the number counted :)

Cheers,
Peter

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On my actual laptop it is alot clearer and they're a branch of my ancestors but I think they've got details wrong as the eldest lady died in 1911 so really I'm more wondering if that's possible with those uniforms ? 

They've only identified one of them and have no other information.  I have a Leicester cap badge and I'm 100% it's correct.  I strongly suspect the back one to be Alfred Ernest Hibbitt who did serve with the Leicestershire Regiment and MGC later on in the war but the lady as I said died in 1911 after the census of that year.

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7 minutes ago, s.hibbitt said:

On my actual laptop it is alot clearer and they're a branch of my ancestors but I think they've got details wrong as the eldest lady died in 1911 so really I'm more wondering if that's possible with those uniforms ? 

They've only identified one of them and have no other information.  I have a Leicester cap badge and I'm 100% it's correct.  I strongly suspect the back one to be Alfred Ernest Hibbitt who did serve with the Leicestershire Regiment and MGC later on in the war but the lady as I said died in 1911 after the census of that year.

If you have it in a better size on your laptop then post it in the same quality here in the forum.  It’s not difficult to do and there’s not a size restriction to inhibit you.

Edited by FROGSMILE
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8 minutes ago, s.hibbitt said:

On my actual laptop it is alot clearer

It can't be, it'll be the same on all forum members screens, unless you've posted a low resolution image on the forum.
If you do have a higher resolution image on your laptop, then please post it.

 

Edited by Dai Bach y Sowldiwr
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9 minutes ago, s.hibbitt said:

I strongly suspect the back one to be Alfred Ernest Hibbitt who did serve with the Leicestershire Regiment and MGC later on in the war but the lady as I said died in 1911 after the census of that year.

Pete_C writes that this must be at least 1917.
It depends on who you think is right?

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2 hours ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

Pete_C writes that this must be at least 1917.
It depends on who you think is right?

I'd go with the opinions on here, that's why I asked, people's knowledge on here is far greater than mine and any help I've had is invaluable. 

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Hi,

Good, now we're getting there, yes, that fits with a Leicestershire cap badge.
Still can't see what the lower one is.

It's roundish without any star points.
It could be any regiment that has an outer laurel wreath, with something in the middle.

Maybe Northampton?

Edited by Dai Bach y Sowldiwr
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Yes top one is Leicestershire Regiment alright and although distorted, my guess looking on a phone screen is torn between Army Service Corps and the Bedfordshire Regiment for the lower one.  I’ll be interested to see what @Michelle Youngand @CorporalPunishmentthinks?

Edited by FROGSMILE
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For what it’s worth I’m swayed by the Essex Rgt for the lower cap badge.

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The seated chap is wearing Bedford Cord 'Pantaloons, Service Dress, Mounted Services' which were worn by any personnel not on foot, which might narrow down the options a bit - Army Service Corps perhaps ?

Also, the head of the elderly man seated on the right appears to have been literally cut and pasted from another image, a not uncommon practice at the time for a variety of reasons. 

Pete

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11 minutes ago, Pete_C said:

The seated chap is wearing Bedford Cord 'Pantaloons, Service Dress, Mounted Services' which were worn by any personnel not on foot, which might narrow down the options a bit - Army Service Corps perhaps ?

Also, the head of the elderly man seated on the right appears to have been literally cut and pasted from another image, a not uncommon practice at the time for a variety of reasons. 

Pete

Yes I think ASC is the best bet of my two earlier thoughts.  As Peter said it looks like a wedding photo, with the two seated centrally the bride and groom flanked by parents and the latter looking none too happy, as if chewing a wasp…. Behind is I suspect the bride’s brothers and sisters, the family likeness seems obvious.

Edited by FROGSMILE
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11 minutes ago, Pete_C said:

head of the elderly man seated on the right appears to have been literally cut and pasted from another image,

Yes it has.

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16 hours ago, Pete_C said:

The seated chap is wearing Bedford Cord 'Pantaloons, Service Dress, Mounted Services' which were worn by any personnel not on foot, which might narrow down the options a bit - Army Service Corps perhaps ?

Also, the head of the elderly man seated on the right appears to have been literally cut and pasted from another image, a not uncommon practice at the time for a variety of reasons. 

Pete

Haha, I'm glad you noticed that because I thought it looked weird as well. Thanks for the info on the seated soldier  it's been very useful.

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This is the same couple on this page and look the same as the elder people in the group photo to me. Given the finer details you've picked up and similarities spotted I'd value your opinion on this if that's ok please  ? Thank you. 

received_668682607366048.jpeg

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11 minutes ago, s.hibbitt said:

This is the same couple on this page and look the same as the elder people in the group photo to me. Given the finer details you've picked up and similarities spotted I'd value your opinion on this if that's ok please  ? Thank you. 

Yes it’s the same elderly couple as in the wedding photo, without any doubt.

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On 25/08/2021 at 18:34, s.hibbitt said:

I have a Leicester cap badge and I'm 100% it's correct.  I strongly suspect the back one to be Alfred Ernest Hibbitt who did serve with the Leicestershire Regiment and MGC later on in the war

I assumes this is the Alfred Ernest Hibbert whose Medal Index Card shows him as Private 1425 Leicestershire Regiment and Lance Corporal 159534 Machine Gun Corps. He first landed in France on the 28th February 1915. So he most likely went overseas with the 1/5th Battalion when it deployed to the Continent.

So in trying to tease out more information about the date of the photograph and the related event, my first thought was to try and see if a nearby numbers search could pin down when he transferred to the Machine Gun Corps. As he is still wearing his Leicesters cap badge it would seem likely the picture predated that transfer.

A search of nearby numbers was a bit sparse on surviving service records but looking at the immediate MiC records:-

159530 Edward Weston was formerly 7936 Leicestershire Regiment. he only qualified for the Victory Medal and the British War Medal (VM & BWM), so did not serve in a Theatre of War until on or after the 1st January 1916.
159531 Alfred E. Ayscough was formerly 26418 Leicestershire Regiment. VM & BWM only.
159532 John M Barber was formerly 5877 Leicestershire Regiment.  VM & BWM only.
159533 John French was formerly 203328 Devonshire Regiment and 235170  Leicestershire Regiment. VM & BWM only. The Devonshire and Leicestershire numbers would both appear to be from the 1917 TF renumbering.

159535 Walter Smith was formerly 6227 Leicestershire Regiment. VM & BWM only.
159536 John C Ward was formerly 5770 Leicestershire Regiment. VM & BWM only.
159537 John Hobbs was formerly 30481 Leicestershire Regiment.  VM & BWM only.
159538 Arthur C. Burton was formerly 2915 Leicestershire Regiment.  VM & BWM only.
159539 John C. Higgins was formerly 235216 Leicestershire Regiment and 205485 Devonshire Regiment. VM & BWM only. The Devonshire and Leicestershire numbers would both appear to be from the 1917 TF renumbering.

So while that is a small sample, it would appear that Alfred Ernest Hinnert was part of a draft from the Leicestershire Regiment to the Machine Gun Corps.

Opening out the search wider, Private 159464 Albert Wilson, formerly 3381 West Riding Regiment, (MiC), does have some surviving service records. They show he was renumbered with the West Riding Regiment to 240716, so was with them until at least the start of 1917.

After being medically repatriated to the UK in April 1918 and receiving treatment, he was transferred to the MGC on the 7th June 1918 and posted to the 6th Reserve Battalion at Grantham. It doesn’t look like he went overseas again.

Also with surviving service records is Private 159609 Richard Broughton, formerly 39637 Northumberland Fusiliers. He too had been medically repatriated to the UK from France in April 1918 and on recovery was transferred to the Machine Gun Corps and posted to the 6th Reserve Battalion at Grantham on the 7th June 1918. He went out back to France on the 8th October 1918.

Seems like a clear out of men at various regimental depots in the North East and East Midlands with them being transferred to the MGC en masse.

Doesn’t really narrow down the period when the picture could have been taken very much, but hopefully the number information is of interest, (and it will save someone else the long slog :)).

Cheers,
Peter

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2 hours ago, PRC said:

I assumes this is the Alfred Ernest Hibbert whose Medal Index Card shows him as Private 1425 Leicestershire Regiment and Lance Corporal 159534 Machine Gun Corps. He first landed in France on the 28th February 1915. So he most likely went overseas with the 1/5th Battalion when it deployed to the Continent.

So in trying to tease out more information about the date of the photograph and the related event, my first thought was to try and see if a nearby numbers search could pin down when he transferred to the Machine Gun Corps. As he is still wearing his Leicesters cap badge it would seem likely the picture predated that transfer.

A search of nearby numbers was a bit sparse on surviving service records but looking at the immediate MiC records:-

159530 Edward Weston was formerly 7936 Leicestershire Regiment. he only qualified for the Victory Medal and the British War Medal (VM & BWM), so did not serve in a Theatre of War until on or after the 1st January 1916.
159531 Alfred E. Ayscough was formerly 26418 Leicestershire Regiment. VM & BWM only.
159532 John M Barber was formerly 5877 Leicestershire Regiment.  VM & BWM only.
159533 John French was formerly 203328 Devonshire Regiment and 235170  Leicestershire Regiment. VM & BWM only. The Devonshire and Leicestershire numbers would both appear to be from the 1917 TF renumbering.

159535 Walter Smith was formerly 6227 Leicestershire Regiment. VM & BWM only.
159536 John C Ward was formerly 5770 Leicestershire Regiment. VM & BWM only.
159537 John Hobbs was formerly 30481 Leicestershire Regiment.  VM & BWM only.
159538 Arthur C. Burton was formerly 2915 Leicestershire Regiment.  VM & BWM only.
159539 John C. Higgins was formerly 235216 Leicestershire Regiment and 205485 Devonshire Regiment. VM & BWM only. The Devonshire and Leicestershire numbers would both appear to be from the 1917 TF renumbering.

So while that is a small sample, it would appear that Alfred Ernest Hinnert was part of a draft from the Leicestershire Regiment to the Machine Gun Corps.

Opening out the search wider, Private 159464 Albert Wilson, formerly 3381 West Riding Regiment, (MiC), does have some surviving service records. They show he was renumbered with the West Riding Regiment to 240716, so was with them until at least the start of 1917.

After being medically repatriated to the UK in April 1918 and receiving treatment, he was transferred to the MGC on the 7th June 1918 and posted to the 6th Reserve Battalion at Grantham. It doesn’t look like he went overseas again.

Also with surviving service records is Private 159609 Richard Broughton, formerly 39637 Northumberland Fusiliers. He too had been medically repatriated to the UK from France in April 1918 and on recovery was transferred to the Machine Gun Corps and posted to the 6th Reserve Battalion at Grantham on the 7th June 1918. He went out back to France on the 8th October 1918.

Seems like a clear out of men at various regimental depots in the North East and East Midlands with them being transferred to the MGC en masse.

Doesn’t really narrow down the period when the picture could have been taken very much, but hopefully the number information is of interest, (and it will save someone else the long slog :)).

Cheers,
Peter

Wow, that's some work there, thank you so much. I might have to go back to the drawing board on this which I've started doing after taking on board the finer details picked up by the good people on here. 

I'm either trying to fit the impossible together but my gut feeling is that somehow there's a connection. Those elder people don't fit the dates in the comments above but tge pictures I have of them match and the lady died in 1911. They raised my Great Grandad when he was orphaned aged 11, his Aunt and Uncle . However the comment on the seated soldier  and his uniform  has recalled a memoy of my Great Grandad's brother. I'm now trawling threw Ancestry going threw ny tree looking at the weddings and military records.  

it's a desire to learn more on my ancestors along with learning more about the Great War in every aspect and hopefully another path to walk in their footsteps. 

FB_IMG_1537222461400.jpg

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The photo shows a sergeant of the Leicestershire Regiment with two wound stripes on his left lower sleeve (one awarded for each ‘occasion’ wounded not for individual wounds). Interestingly he appears to wear the original, issued pattern of such stripes in gold wire, rather than the metal (brass) most soldiers subsequently purchased to simplify transfer between garments.  He’s also wearing a 1916 issue soft SD forage cap.  As the wire stripes were also introduced in 1916 (after the Somme battles) it suggests a date of either, late 1916 or early 1917, but it might be later too.  The sergeants face bears a striking resemblance to the groom in the wedding photo, but I’m not positive it’s him and wonder what others think?  If it is him, it must be later in the war after perhaps being combed out to reinforce infantry.  There are no overseas chevrons visible.

D61C48E0-7A22-4451-9159-0A25D8372263.jpeg

Edited by FROGSMILE
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