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Remembered Today:

Captain Edward Pratt, 3rd & 9th Devonshire Regiment and ASC


Winson Saw

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23 hours ago, corisande said:

3. It seems that Edward Haslope Pratt only had the one son Edward Lancelot  Knight Pratt , born 1872. By his second wife. There may have been a son by his first wife

Although his first wife died 1868 so an 1875 birth is ruled out. 

EHP is fairly settled as a postmaster in 1871 1881 census so no opportunity to get to Jamaica

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Winson

please could you check through all the documents you have to see if it gives his next of kin anywhere at all. It could be in any of the attestation forms. Also addresses, births etc

 

Thank you

George

It is extremely odd how someone who held such a large number of 'important' roles does not appear anywhere in the press with a photograph

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5 hours ago, George Rayner said:

t is extremely odd how someone who held such a large number of 'important' roles does not appear anywhere in the press with a photograph

 

Simple George, because it is his sister :)

5 hours ago, George Rayner said:

Winson

please could you check through all the documents you have to see if it gives his next of kin anywhere at all

George,

I have already asked twice in this thread and Winson has not obliged :(

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Re Capt A J Fox of 3rd Royal Irish who underwrote Pratt's application in 3rd Royal Irish

Twentieth century impressions of British Malaya: its history, people, commerce, industries, and resources Page 598

Captain A. J. Fox, 3rd Batt. Royal Irish Regiment, is attached, and in command of the mounted infantry section, and Lieutenant G. C. Forbes is attached from the South Indian Railway Volunteer Corps, and is in command of the Maxim section

Link to full page

. Captain Arthur J. Fox, the joint manager of Seafield estate, is a son of Mr. J. G. Hubert Fox, J.P., a retired officer of the 5th Lancers, lixing at Galtrim House, Summer Hill, county Meath, Ireland. He was born on June 1st, 1871, at Tipperary, and was educated at Birr, and at Dunstan College, Staffordshire. After studying at the Military Academy, under Mr. Backhouse, he joined the 3rd Royal Irish Regiment as an officer in 1889, and served with it for four years. Resigning his commission then, he went to Ceylon as a tea-planter. In that island he stayed a year, after which he proceeded to Travancore, in India, and engaged in tea and coffee planting for seven years. On the outbreak of the Boer War, Mr. Fox rejoined his old regiment, the 3rd Royal Irish, and went through the campaign. For his services he received a medal with three barsa1901, 1902, and Cape Colony. In 1901 he was gazetted captain. When the war ended he went home, and after eighteen months' stay, came out to the Federated Malay States. He joined Sea-field estate as co-adjutant manager, and assisted in opening it up. Mr. Fox is a member of all local clubs and commandant of the Federated Malay States Mounted Infantry. His chief recreations are cricket and tennis. Mr. H. R. Quartley.aThe son of the late Mr. Henry J. Quartley, of Yorkshire, Mr. H. R. Quartley, manager of the Seafield estate at PENDAMARAN ESTATE, SELANGOR. Aome Fine Old Rubber Trees, coconut Plantation.A ome Fine Old Rubber Trees, coconut Plantation.

Edited by corisande
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Arthur J Fox was registered without being named

fox-birth.JPG.0b2588cfc50278605b1e8ea81515bf5e.JPG

He was in fact Arthur James Fox born Killaghy Castle, a suitably country gentleman's house

killaghy.jpg.06dc6010ea44911fa022376d8b8ef499.jpg

 

Tree on Ancestry at link

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2 hours ago, corisande said:

because it is his sister

That had slipped my mind! 

2 hours ago, corisande said:

asked twice in this thread

Reinforcement of a point used to work in school sometimes

 

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20 hours ago, George Rayner said:

Winson-could you ask them if they have any family details about him please? Parent's names, date of birth, address, siblings etc

George

Ok.I will ask the school archivist again.Will let you know.

20 hours ago, George Rayner said:

Although his first wife died 1868 so an 1875 birth is ruled out. 

EHP is fairly settled as a postmaster in 1871 1881 census so no opportunity to get to Jamaica

So it could be wrongly written as Jamaica.

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19 hours ago, George Rayner said:

Winson

please could you check through all the documents you have to see if it gives his next of kin anywhere at all. It could be in any of the attestation forms. Also addresses, births etc

 

Thank you

George

It is extremely odd how someone who held such a large number of 'important' roles does not appear anywhere in the press with a photograph

Ok,thanks.I will check the 'Pratt file' that I have received from a senoir army researcher again.Yes,it's very strange for a person who holds many army posts and government officer but it didn't have any picture of him taken or can be found.

14 hours ago, corisande said:

 

Simple George, because it is his sister :)

George,

I have already asked twice in this thread and Winson has not obliged :(

Sorry.I think I have misssed on your message.Will look on the "Pratt file' that I have again.It's such a big file.Cannot be send it here.

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14 hours ago, corisande said:

Re Capt A J Fox of 3rd Royal Irish who underwrote Pratt's application in 3rd Royal Irish

Twentieth century impressions of British Malaya: its history, people, commerce, industries, and resources Page 598

Captain A. J. Fox, 3rd Batt. Royal Irish Regiment, is attached, and in command of the mounted infantry section, and Lieutenant G. C. Forbes is attached from the South Indian Railway Volunteer Corps, and is in command of the Maxim section

Link to full page

. Captain Arthur J. Fox, the joint manager of Seafield estate, is a son of Mr. J. G. Hubert Fox, J.P., a retired officer of the 5th Lancers, lixing at Galtrim House, Summer Hill, county Meath, Ireland. He was born on June 1st, 1871, at Tipperary, and was educated at Birr, and at Dunstan College, Staffordshire. After studying at the Military Academy, under Mr. Backhouse, he joined the 3rd Royal Irish Regiment as an officer in 1889, and served with it for four years. Resigning his commission then, he went to Ceylon as a tea-planter. In that island he stayed a year, after which he proceeded to Travancore, in India, and engaged in tea and coffee planting for seven years. On the outbreak of the Boer War, Mr. Fox rejoined his old regiment, the 3rd Royal Irish, and went through the campaign. For his services he received a medal with three barsa1901, 1902, and Cape Colony. In 1901 he was gazetted captain. When the war ended he went home, and after eighteen months' stay, came out to the Federated Malay States. He joined Sea-field estate as co-adjutant manager, and assisted in opening it up. Mr. Fox is a member of all local clubs and commandant of the Federated Malay States Mounted Infantry. His chief recreations are cricket and tennis. Mr. H. R. Quartley.aThe son of the late Mr. Henry J. Quartley, of Yorkshire, Mr. H. R. Quartley, manager of the Seafield estate at PENDAMARAN ESTATE, SELANGOR. Aome Fine Old Rubber Trees, coconut Plantation.A ome Fine Old Rubber Trees, coconut Plantation.

It's very interesting.So I think some pictures might be given to Captain A.J.Fox.

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14 hours ago, corisande said:

 

Simple George, because it is his sister :)

George,

I have already asked twice in this thread and Winson has not obliged :(

Sorry,George.Here is more information about his army career's and the name of his next of kin.

pr1.png

pr2.png

pr3.png

pr4.png

pr5.png

pr6.png

pr7.png

pr8.png

pr9.png

pr11.png

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On 26/09/2021 at 20:18, George Rayner said:

Trying to read through the documents presented and make sense of them...

Edward resigns from Malay States Volunteer Rifles,as a Corporal, on 23.10.15 to join Imperial Forces in Europe. He then appears as Cadet Officer 1st April 1916. 

What was the process for this please if anybody knows?

The same attestation says that his birth certificate was seen. Is it there?

George

He joined the 7th cadet battalion Of The Royal Irish Regiment on April 1916.

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 25/09/2021 at 13:21, MaureenE said:

I think any potential information at Oxford University would be held by a particular College.

Perhaps someone else on GWF can give you some advice about how to  find out which College Pratt attended.

If not, perhaps this link may be able to tell you which College he was at https://www.ox.ac.uk/students/graduation/verification/  .    If  information is provided you could then contact the relevant College https://www.ox.ac.uk/about/colleges.  

Thanks for advising regarding the Malayan Civil List

Maureen

I have found some new information.He wasn't educated at Shrewsbury School.He was trained as recruit army there in between 1915-1916.He wasn't a graduate university in Oxford.He didn't go to any university.

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He certainly is a mystery man.

However, whatever  his birth and schooling details, it seems  to be an established fact that he qualified for appointment to the Colonial Civil Service which at that period was by competitive examination, and  I understand, highly sought after. So he must have been educated somewhere. From his contact in Malaya with Captain A J Fox, and the later recommendation by  Captain Fox,  it appears likely that Pratt was  considered socially acceptable,  i.e. he was the right class. It must be remembered that class issues were important in those days.

On 14/10/2021 at 16:26, Winson Saw said:

I have found some new information.He wasn't educated at Shrewsbury School.He was trained as recruit army there in between 1915-1916.He wasn't a graduate university in Oxford.He didn't go to any university.

Where did you find the information, and were there any further details?

Maureen

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2 hours ago, MaureenE said:

He certainly is a mystery man.

However, whatever  his birth and schooling details, it seems  to be an established fact that he qualified for appointment to the Colonial Civil Service which at that period was by competitive examination, and  I understand, highly sought after. So he must have been educated somewhere. From his contact in Malaya with Captain A J Fox, and the later recommendation by  Captain Fox,  it appears likely that Pratt was  considered socially acceptable,  i.e. he was the right class. It must be remembered that class issues were important in those days.

Where did you find the information, and were there any further details?

Maureen

I suspect his mother was Jamaican.As his place of birth was Jamaica.Plus we have the wrong name of his parents.The archivist of Middle Of The Temple kindly sent me his records in the bar archives.His father was listed as Edward R Pratt not Edward Haslope Pratt.So he must be mixed bloods then.

 

The Shrewsbury School archivist still cannot find him attached to Shrewsbury School.But there's a website - https://menonthegates.org.uk/maf_army/7-bn-kings-shropshire-light-infantry/?fbclid=IwAR1Onxet3X3wunrIRDQRuV1EKzqCUCcZ8LNhibx5-ZfeB2wwXrlccxa1ZXc


There's was a clue there.He was served in 7 Bn King's Shropshire Light Infantry almost the  same year.On the website mentioned -


Through the rest of September and into October the battalion gradually came up to strength. During this time new officers joined the battalion. All the officers except 2 – the CO and Adjutant – were newly commissioned. All were former public school boys including 5 from Shrewsbury School. With minimal equipment the time was spent on route marches and drilling. In October too the first ‘Kitchener blue’ uniforms arrived, these were temporary cloths.

Attached is further information about him in the bar.962981086_EdwardPrattAdmissionForm1.JPG.cab5de5d7abb0d3abada303f23fdb610.JPG

Cpl E Pratt Parit Buntar MSVR.jpg

Edward Pratt Call Form 1.JPG

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A few further thoughts.

Edward Pratt appears in the Colonial Office List of 1908 (I could not find him before this date)

https://archive.org/details/colonial-office-list-1908/page/567/mode/1up

and then appears regularly where he is shown as educated at Shrewsbury. Personally, I think it likely he was at Shewsbury. I think it unlikely his name would appear regularly in the Colonial Office List with that information year after year without some one picking it up if it was indeed fraululent information. Class, including matters of schooling were important then.

I also think it very unlikely his mother was a native Jamaican and that he was of mixed race. This is also related to attitudes of class. When he was born  (1875 or whenever) mixed race marriages were not considered socially acceptable, (although it might have been different 100 years before his birth). I also doubt very much whether he would have been accepted into the Colonial Civil Service if he has been of mixed race, which would have been viewed as lowering the prestige of that Service.

The father Edward R Pratton the Middle Temple records has the same address  as Edward Haslope Pratt, so the chances are they are the same person.  However they could be different people if The Priory Shrewsbury was a large house, or an estate, large enough to have different households living there.

Maureen

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On 17/10/2021 at 08:40, MaureenE said:

A few further thoughts.

Edward Pratt appears in the Colonial Office List of 1908 (I could not find him before this date)

https://archive.org/details/colonial-office-list-1908/page/567/mode/1up

and then appears regularly where he is shown as educated at Shrewsbury. Personally, I think it likely he was at Shewsbury. I think it unlikely his name would appear regularly in the Colonial Office List with that information year after year without some one picking it up if it was indeed fraululent information. Class, including matters of schooling were important then.

I also think it very unlikely his mother was a native Jamaican and that he was of mixed race. This is also related to attitudes of class. When he was born  (1875 or whenever) mixed race marriages were not considered socially acceptable, (although it might have been different 100 years before his birth). I also doubt very much whether he would have been accepted into the Colonial Civil Service if he has been of mixed race, which would have been viewed as lowering the prestige of that Service.

The father Edward R Pratton the Middle Temple records has the same address  as Edward Haslope Pratt, so the chances are they are the same person.  However they could be different people if The Priory Shrewsbury was a large house, or an estate, large enough to have different households living there.

Maureen

Do you mean he was at Shrewsbury before 1908?.Here is the website where you can find all information about him till retirement.

Here is the link :- https://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/newspapers/

But some early governors of Penang here were married to a local native.But the name of their local wives wouldn't appeared in any old newspapers or documents or even a will except children name if any been shown off.

I think Edward Haslope Pratt was never served in Jamaica before.As we know he was a postmaster which been stationed a varouis district over in England.So I think his correct name of his father is Edward R Pratt.

Do let me know on what you can figure on these out.


Best wishes,
Winson Saw


 

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The link I provided above for the 1908 Colonial Office List  states that he was educated at Shrewsbury.

If you want to look in later Colonial Office Lists you can access them at

https://wiki.fibis.org/w/Directories_online#Colonial_Office_List

 In summary, there are some discrepancies, but as in my post of  17 October 2021, and for the reasons given,  I think it was likely he was at school at Shrewsbury,  and very unlikely his mother was a native Jamaican.

In my post of 26 September  (page 2) I said  "I also think at this period documentation would have been required by the Colonial Office, so that as the 1925 Malayan Civil List shows a  birth date of February 15, 1875 I think this is very likely to have  been his correct date of birth" .

In my post of 27 September (Page 3) I also raised the possibility of  him being an orphan, or illegitimate. Maybe Edward Haslope Pratt  had an affair in England and the woman went to Jamaica for the birth. Maybe his father was a different E Pratt. or maybe not a Pratt at all.

But possibly you will never be able to clarify.

I don't really think I have anything further to add.

Regards

Maureen

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2 hours ago, MaureenE said:

I don't really think I have anything further to add.

:thumbsup: Me neither

Maureen has summed it up.

Given that you have invested heavily so far " the 'Pratt file' that I have received from a senoir army researcher "  ( I am sure senior Army researchers do not come cheap), it would be a small extra sum to get the Birth Cert of Edward Haslope Pratt 's only child born in Jan/Mar 1875,  and that was Edith Gertrude Pratt. That would see if, for whatever reason, Capt Pratt was using the same DOB

The only way that one can usually get to the truth of this sort of mystery is to keep an open mind and see where the evidence leads you. And follow all the evidence as carefully as you can

It comes down in the end to a balance of probability. For example there is only one reference to him being born in Jamaica, but everywhere else in his life he says he was born in Britain. The balance of probability is that he was born in Britain, as we cannot find any records to substantiate Jamaica (although the birth record for his wife in Jamaica does exist). One of the references to him born in Britian is below, and that form had his Birth Cert attached, so is likely to be true. By the way, am I right in assuming that the BC has been weeded and is no longer in his file. One would assume that the BC said he was born 15 Feb 1875 in Britain if it had neen attached for checking

pratt-bc.jpg.3b39f3622624eba65a23a04bf5b2fa16.jpg

Sherlock Holmes said "once you have eliminated the impossible whatever remains however improbable must be the truth"

Edited by corisande
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Since my above posts, I have seen  a short item on television about intersex children, where their sex is not obvious at birth.  Perhaps corisande is correct, and Pratt was registered as a girl, but as he became older it became obvious he was a boy. I suppose in this situation a new birth certificate as a boy would be issued.

Maureen

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On 18/10/2021 at 13:57, MaureenE said:

The link I provided above for the 1908 Colonial Office List  states that he was educated at Shrewsbury.

If you want to look in later Colonial Office Lists you can access them at

https://wiki.fibis.org/w/Directories_online#Colonial_Office_List

 In summary, there are some discrepancies, but as in my post of  17 October 2021, and for the reasons given,  I think it was likely he was at school at Shrewsbury,  and very unlikely his mother was a native Jamaican.

In my post of 26 September  (page 2) I said  "I also think at this period documentation would have been required by the Colonial Office, so that as the 1925 Malayan Civil List shows a  birth date of February 15, 1875 I think this is very likely to have  been his correct date of birth" .

In my post of 27 September (Page 3) I also raised the possibility of  him being an orphan, or illegitimate. Maybe Edward Haslope Pratt  had an affair in England and the woman went to Jamaica for the birth. Maybe his father was a different E Pratt. or maybe not a Pratt at all.

But possibly you will never be able to clarify.

I don't really think I have anything further to add.

Regards

Maureen

Interesting.I have checked with archivist at Shrewbury School.He cannot find any records of him.So I think he were at different school in Shrewbury.Will check on this.So the correction is he was educated at Shrewbury before went on furlough and served with Imperial War Service in 1915-1920.Yes,it's possibilty he's an orphan boy.That's why he cannot find in any census records.I'll try to check with Jamaica National Archives on these.Thnks again.


Kind regards,

Winson Saw

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  • 1 month later...

Hello Maureen,


 Here I have obtained the last will of his wife,Dorothy Eleanor Pratt.I can see that she has left everything including prints and furnitures even a house they lived in Castletown,Isle of Man to Rachel Mary Anne Coombs (1922-2003).The only information that I have is Rachel who married to Robins.And died in 2003 Western-super-mare.But I don't know whether this Rachel had any children or not.So I think I will be able to ask of any pictures of the Pratts if I can find any further information on Rachel.
 

Any help?.

Best regards,
Winson Sawdocument_1977334-1 (1).pdf

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Rachel Coombs

  • The 1939 Register tells you she was born 25 May 1922 as  ROBINS
  • There is one Ancestry Tree - click - which is not strong on details
  • She married Coombs after 1939, but I cannot find the marriage
  • Her benefactor, Edward Pratt's widow, was nee Dorothy Eleanor Clow  and married Edward Pratt in 1911.
  • Dorothy Eleanor Clow was born 1885 in Jamaica and lived before her marriage, in Cornwall
  • I do not see any link between the two women that would have led to Dorothy Eleanor leaving everything to Rachel Coombs
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Rachel Coombs may have had one child in UK

Births Mar 1947   (>99%)
Coombs  Simon C  .     Robins  Portsmouth  6b 779
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It is a long thread - have we established where and when Edward Pratt died ?

..found in now earlier in the thread - in Apr 1948

699903637_pratt4.jpg.0bf17aac37d9d8f650f

Which gets me further from who he was, as Edith Gertrude died in 1943

1598708001_gertrudedeath.jpg.d208f50ec070ef2f1bb0eba3e6c516c1.jpg

Edited by corisande
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21 hours ago, corisande said:

Rachel Coombs

  • The 1939 Register tells you she was born 25 May 1922 as  ROBINS
  • There is one Ancestry Tree - click - which is not strong on details
  • She married Coombs after 1939, but I cannot find the marriage
  • Her benefactor, Edward Pratt's widow, was nee Dorothy Eleanor Clow  and married Edward Pratt in 1911.
  • Dorothy Eleanor Clow was born 1885 in Jamaica and lived before her marriage, in Cornwall
  • I do not see any link between the two women that would have led to Dorothy Eleanor leaving everything to Rachel Coombs

Hello Corisande,


 Ok,thanks.Thanks for your correction.So Rachel Coombs is benefactor of Dorothy Eleanor Pratt's will.So I assumed that Rachel is just appointed as her trustee and distributed all Dorothy's belonging to her relatives and friends.


I just notice that Dorothy had a cousin who named Mrs Kitty Deane and she was mentioned in the will.But I cannot find any further information for her cousin,Mrs Kitty Deane.


Please let me know.

deane.jpg

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