MaureenE Posted 26 September , 2021 Share Posted 26 September , 2021 Admission records https://www.middletemple.org.uk/archive/archive-information-access/sources-resources/digitised-records/registers-admissions I notice most of the names have a later date "called...." which is generally at least two or more years later. I wonder the reference to 1920 is for something subsequent to admission which would mean his admission date could have been earlier than 1920. Maureen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Rayner Posted 26 September , 2021 Share Posted 26 September , 2021 Got him. In Middle Temple archive January 4th 1918 Edward Pratt Colonial Civil Servant, Captain 16th Battalion South Lancs Regiment (42). Second son of E Pratt Shrewsbury, Salop. Called 26th Jan 1920 ...so not a lot of help George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corisande Posted 26 September , 2021 Share Posted 26 September , 2021 6 minutes ago, George Rayner said: ...so not a lot of help Yes, that does not solve our problem I think we can agree that the 2nd son of E Pratt of Shrewsbury was born 1872 as Edward Lancelot Knight Pratt And that Edward Pratt, the Malaya Civil Servant, was born (or said he was born ) 15 Feb 1875. In both 1916 attesting and in his Malaya retirement notice We are no closer to determining whether it is the same man Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dai Bach y Sowldiwr Posted 26 September , 2021 Share Posted 26 September , 2021 5 hours ago, corisande said: The OP may not like my conclusion, which is that Edward & Edith were the same person. Not quite sure what you're saying... PRATT, EDITH GERTRUDE Mother's Maiden Name: BURTON GRO Reference: 1875 M Quarter in ATCHAM SALOP Volume 06A Page 734 PRATT, EDWARD LANCELOT KNIGHT Mother's Maiden Name: BURTON GRO Reference: 1872 S Quarter in ATCHAM SALOP Volume 06A Page 686 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corisande Posted 26 September , 2021 Share Posted 26 September , 2021 Not quite sure what you're saying... As far as I can ascertain, there was only one Edward Pratt in the birth records, and he was born in 1872. You have him there - Edward Launcelot Knight Pratt There is no Edward Pratt born 1875, but the Malaya Civil Servant repeatedly gives his birth as 1875, and his father as Edward Haslope Pratt There is NO Edward Pratt born 1875. The only child born in 1875 to Edward Haslope Pratt is Edith Gertrude So either a) the Malaya Civil Servant was born in 1875 and is in fact Edith Gertrude or b) he is Edward Lancelot Knight Pratt born 1872 , who has dropped "Lancelot Knight" to become plain Edward, and lied on marriage, and on joining Malay Civil Service, and on joining the army - with a date of birth of 15 Feb 1875. And he has chosen to use "Edward " rather than "Edward Lancelot Knight" on commissioning Take your pick. I have been up and down this, and believe that it is one of those two options. Can you come up with anything else that fits Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Rayner Posted 26 September , 2021 Share Posted 26 September , 2021 Birth in Jamaica? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dai Bach y Sowldiwr Posted 26 September , 2021 Share Posted 26 September , 2021 I see. Well, the February 1875 date isn't Edith's date of birth, who was born between July-September. I'd say he just lost 3 years off his age, maybe anxious thinking about his retirement years in the future, displeased at having to go at 55, and using this as a ploy to extend his working life by 3 years? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corisande Posted 26 September , 2021 Share Posted 26 September , 2021 (edited) Well, the February 1875 date isn't Edith's date of birth, who was born between July-September As I said, she was born Jan - Mar 1875 Surname First name(s) District Vol Page Births Mar 1875 (>99%) Pratt Edith Gertrude Atcham 6a 734 Edited 26 September , 2021 by corisande Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corisande Posted 26 September , 2021 Share Posted 26 September , 2021 And with maybe anxious thinking about his retirement years in the future, I would point out that he used 15 Feb 1875 when he attested in Ireland in 1916, as well as that being the date quoted when he retired in 1929 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Rayner Posted 26 September , 2021 Share Posted 26 September , 2021 Is his DoB on anything before Ireland? Can anybody access Jamaican births register? George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corisande Posted 26 September , 2021 Share Posted 26 September , 2021 8 minutes ago, George Rayner said: Can anybody access Jamaican births register? They are on familysearch.org. But although Dorothy Eleanor Clow is there, I cannot get an Edward Pratt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Rayner Posted 26 September , 2021 Share Posted 26 September , 2021 That then means we can link Edward Pratt-according to his birth in Jamaica- and Dorothy Eleanor Clow and the marriage between the two? George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dai Bach y Sowldiwr Posted 26 September , 2021 Share Posted 26 September , 2021 30 minutes ago, corisande said: Well, the February 1875 date isn't Edith's date of birth, who was born between July-September As I said, she was born Jan - Mar 1875 Sorry. Yes, my mistake. Trying to scroll back through pages and reply on a different one. Regarding the added years, It may well have come in handy in his early career. He probably continued the deception, and it certainly came in handy not having to retire until 58? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corisande Posted 26 September , 2021 Share Posted 26 September , 2021 I do not think so. I do not think there is or was any doubt the Dorothy Eleanor Clow was born in Jamaica Apart from one of Edward's attestations he was was born in Jamaica, but not the other attestation which says British born I believe that Edward Pratt, 2nd son of Edward Haslope Pratt married Dorothy Eleanor Clow in 1911. The transcription of that marriage gives a DOB for him of 1875 (but neither confirms nor denies his place of birth) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corisande Posted 26 September , 2021 Share Posted 26 September , 2021 3 minutes ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said: Yes, my mistake. Trying to scroll back through pages and reply on a different one. Regarding the added years, It may well have come in handy in his early career. He probably continued the deception, and it certainly came in handy not having to retire until 58? As I said, there are only two solutions to who he was. Basically we do not have enough information to solve this as it stands, only theorise So either a) the Malaya Civil Servant was born in 1875 and is in fact Edith Gertrude or b) he is Edward Lancelot Knight Pratt born 1872 , who has dropped "Lancelot Knight" to become plain Edward, and lied on marriage, and on joining Malay Civil Service, and on joining the army - with a date of birth of 15 Feb 1875. And he has chosen to use "Edward " rather than "Edward Lancelot Knight" on commissioning Take your pick. I have been up and down this, and believe that it is one of those two options. Can you come up with anything else that fits Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaureenE Posted 27 September , 2021 Share Posted 27 September , 2021 (edited) Perhaps there is an other alternative. Could Edward Pratt born Jamaica have been born under a different name and then for some reason adopted when his name was changed?. In 1875 or the years following, adoption would have generally been an informal process. Edward Pratt born Jamaica could have become an orphan, perhaps his parents were related to the father E Pratt of Shrewsbury, or his wife, or were family friends. There were plenty of orphans in those days, and I image in places like Jamaica probably even more. In addition there could be some illegitimacy rather than orphan scenarios, including one where E Pratt of Shrewsbury was the actual father. As an example of an adoption by a family member, a girl I knew from my schooldays, later when married with 3 children adopted with her husband a young girl who was her husband's great niece (granddaughter of the husband's sister) because the child's unmarried mother was unable to cope. Perhaps it would be helpful for Winson Saw, the original poster, to contact Shrewsbury School again ask what details the school has in its records about full name, date and place of birth, parents details etc Regarding the Middle Temple membership, I think this is a source worth pursuing for a possible photograph. Maureen Edited 27 September , 2021 by MaureenE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winson Saw Posted 27 September , 2021 Author Share Posted 27 September , 2021 17 hours ago, MaureenE said: Possibly, but I suspect that even if he did not complete his degree, he had got good results at University, and had probably almost completed his degree, because entry to the Colonial Civil Service at this period was by competitive examination, and my understanding is that positions were keenly sought. Possibly still with worth while pursuing the Oxford connection. Perhaps he was at the same college as his father? I also think at this period documentation would have been required by the Colonial Office, so that as the 1925 Malayan Civil List shows a birth date of February 15, 1875 I think this is very likely to have e been his correct date of birth . This means the other Edward Pratt is very likely to be a different person. The Malayan Civil List 1925 shows that he was a Barrister-at-Law, Middle Temple, from 26-1- 20. This is therefore an avenue to pursue for a photograph. https://www.middletemple.org.uk/about-us which says there is "an historic archive". If Edward Pratt is in your family tree, another option is for you to do DNA testing with a number of companies and hope that eventually you will make contact with another member of your extended family, who may have some family photos in their possession. A male cousin of mine had tests with I think 3 companies which led to a very valuable contact through MyHeritage which resulted in family photographs of extended family, although not our grandfather If you want to follow up a possible birth in Jamaica, see the FIBIS Fibiwiki page West Indies for sources https://wiki.fibis.org/w/West_Indies Maureen Ok,thanks.Where is Pembroke College located?.Also in Oxford?.Very unlikely Middle Temple archives have any photos of their members.I did try to contact them regarding about another colonial govt servant before.Sorry,he wasn't a family member.I'm a historian.He was acting Resident Councillor of Penang in 1924. 9 hours ago, corisande said: As I said, there are only two solutions to who he was. Basically we do not have enough information to solve this as it stands, only theorise So either a) the Malaya Civil Servant was born in 1875 and is in fact Edith Gertrude or b) he is Edward Lancelot Knight Pratt born 1872 , who has dropped "Lancelot Knight" to become plain Edward, and lied on marriage, and on joining Malay Civil Service, and on joining the army - with a date of birth of 15 Feb 1875. And he has chosen to use "Edward " rather than "Edward Lancelot Knight" on commissioning Take your pick. I have been up and down this, and believe that it is one of those two options. Can you come up with anything else that fits Interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winson Saw Posted 27 September , 2021 Author Share Posted 27 September , 2021 10 hours ago, corisande said: I do not think so. I do not think there is or was any doubt the Dorothy Eleanor Clow was born in Jamaica Apart from one of Edward's attestations he was was born in Jamaica, but not the other attestation which says British born I believe that Edward Pratt, 2nd son of Edward Haslope Pratt married Dorothy Eleanor Clow in 1911. The transcription of that marriage gives a DOB for him of 1875 (but neither confirms nor denies his place of birth) Here is more information about Dorothy's father,Admiral Sir George James Clow - https://rickmcbee.me/2013/03/12/personalities-related-to-richard-clow-sir-george-j-clow-capt-r-n-c-b-1853-192/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaureenE Posted 27 September , 2021 Share Posted 27 September , 2021 34 minutes ago, Winson Saw said: Ok,thanks.Where is Pembroke College located?.Also in Oxford?.Very unlikely Middle Temple archives have any photos of their members.I did try to contact them regarding about another colonial govt servant before.Sorry,he wasn't a family member.I'm a historian.He was acting Resident Councillor of Penang in 1924. Interesting. Yes, see the link for Oxford Colleges I previously quoted 25 September 2021 on page 1 of this topic. Maureen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Rayner Posted 27 September , 2021 Share Posted 27 September , 2021 Edward was in Malaya in September 1911-half pay leave 22nd September and got married in Cornwall on 4th October. Seems short time to travel that distance. Just clutching at straws and casting around really George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Rayner Posted 27 September , 2021 Share Posted 27 September , 2021 In 1916 how could Captain Fox vouch for Edward's good character for the past four years if Edward had been a civil servant in Malaya/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corisande Posted 27 September , 2021 Share Posted 27 September , 2021 Just now, George Rayner said: 1916 how could Captain Fox vouch for Edward's good character for the past four years if Edward had been a civil servant in Malaya/ If Fox had been a Civil Servant in Malaya too. Or indeed worked in Malaya Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Rayner Posted 27 September , 2021 Share Posted 27 September , 2021 Yes I had that same thought...I'm struggling to identify him within the Royal Irish as well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corisande Posted 27 September , 2021 Share Posted 27 September , 2021 Fox is a well known Dublin name. I have not tried to find him yet in army. Might have a go later Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Rayner Posted 27 September , 2021 Share Posted 27 September , 2021 On 25/09/2021 at 05:29, Winson Saw said: Dear Winson, Thank you for your enquiry about Capt. Pratt. I am afraid we do not have any photographs of him at school. At that period photos are less common than later. I am sorry not to be able to help. With best wishes, Robin Dr Robin Brooke-Smith Taylor Librarian and Archivist Shrewsbury School Winson-could you ask them if they have any family details about him please? Parent's names, date of birth, address, siblings etc George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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