Captain Edward Pratt, 3rd & 9th Devonshire Regiment and ASC

[corisande]

14 minutes ago, George Rayner said:

No I am trying to find a way to track him...but I am confused about his family, parents and story which makes it difficult.

 

@Winson Saw you have to realise that this point of George's is the key to whether you find this photo or not. Basically you are not likely to find an army photo - forum members have looked and failed to find that. So the only place you will get it is from school, university, civil service, or whatever

[George Rayner]

Winson I note that in 1916 he lists himself as married. Do you have the name of his wife and place of marriage and date please? If it was Malaya it may be tricky with newspapers but if UK could be simpler

Thanks

George

[corisande]

7 minutes ago, George Rayner said:

Winson I note that in 1916 he lists himself as married. Do you have the name of his wife and place of marriage and date please?

Name. Edward Pratt

Gender .Male

Age.36

Birth Date.1875

Marriage Date. 1911

Marriage Place. Saint Gerrans, Cornwall, England

Father .Edward Pratt

Spouse. Dorothy Eleanor Clow

 

Edited 26 September , 2021 by corisande

[Winson Saw]

4 minutes ago, George Rayner said:

Winson I note that in 1916 he lists himself as married. Do you have the name of his wife and place of marriage and date please? If it was Malaya it may be tricky with newspapers but if UK could be simpler

Thanks

George

His wife was Dorothy Eleanor Pratt nee Clow.Only daughter Of Admiral Sir George James Clow,R.N. of Cornwall and Jamaica.

13 minutes ago, corisande said:

 

@Winson Saw you have to realise that this point of George's is the key to whether you find this photo or not. Basically you are not likely to find an army photo - forum members have looked and failed to find that. So the only place you will get it is from school, university, civil service, or whatever

Have checked on his school,our local archives.But none.Even in our local old newspapers online.

[George Rayner]

Oh yes...sorry I had already found that!

Time to refresh

George

[Winson Saw]

3 minutes ago, George Rayner said:

Oh yes...sorry I had already found that!

Time to refresh

George

The reason why is he didn't any children.Plus his wife didn't have any siblings.So I assumed all their family papers might be went to their servants in Castletown,Isle of Man.

[George Rayner]

I am intrigued by the Newspaper report which says that Edward is the 'second son' of Edward Pratt of the Priory Shrewsbury. I cannot find an elder child anywhere between the birth of Edward L K Pratt 1872 and the marriage in 1871 to Mary Gertrude Burton. The other later children from that marriage appear to be girls as well.

George

[George Rayner]

I have found a 'previous' wife for Edward Haslope Pratt

which would explain the 'second son' bit for Edward in the marriage announcements. 

This dated March 1868, Worcester Journal courtesy of Find My Past

George

 

[Winson Saw]

14 minutes ago, George Rayner said:

I have found a 'previous' wife for Edward Haslope Pratt

which would explain the 'second son' bit for Edward in the marriage announcements. 

This dated March 1868, Worcester Journal courtesy of Find My Past

George

 

Interesting.Thanks.

[corisande]

We need to sort out who he was, and where he came from

1. The 1881 census shows Edward L.K Pratt with parents Edward H (MA Oxon) and Mary G. He is aged 8, and BMD also gives him born here in 1872. Which is what the bapt tells us. So that is solid for Edward L K Pratt and his parents

2. His attestation in 1916 in Ireland gives born 15 Feb 1875 and born Jamaica on on form, British born on other. And as far as I can see uses 1875 on all info

So are they the same man?

Edited 26 September , 2021 by corisande

[Winson Saw]

29 minutes ago, corisande said:

We need to sort out who he was, and where he came from

1. The 1881 census shows Edward L.K Pratt with parents Edward H (MA Oxon) and Mary G. He is aged 8, and BMD also gives him born here in 1872. Which is what the bapt tells us. So that is solid for Edward L K Pratt and his parents

2. His attestation in 1916 in Ireland gives born 15 Feb 1875 and born Jamaica on on form, British born on other. And as far as I can see uses 1875 on all info

So are they the same man?

I think it's a different person.As his birthdate is given as 1875.

[corisande]

OK, having been over it all, I do not think they are the same man

I don't think that the man who came from Malaya and enlisted in Dublin in 1916 and who (probably) was born in Jamaica in 1875 , is the son of Edward Haslope Pratt (a man who was born 1872 in Shropshire on all records)

I think that it is unlikely (at that time ) that a Civil Servant and an officer would use plain "Edward" when he could have used the much more floral "Edward Lancelot Knight"

It leads me to two questions

1. What do his attestation forms give as his next of kin ? I think @Winson Saw has the whole form and can check

2. Did the army officer who enlisted in 1916 marry Miss Clow ? The man who married Miss Clow was son of Ed Haslope Pratt, but I am not clear that it is the right man

3. It seems that Edward Haslope Pratt only had the one son Edward Lancelot  Knight Pratt , born 1872. By his second wife. There may have been a son by his first wife

Edited 26 September , 2021 by corisande

[Winson Saw]

2 minutes ago, corisande said:

OK, having been over it all, I do not think they are the same man

I don't think that the man who came from Malaya and enlisted in Dublin in 1916 and who (probably) was born in Jamaica in 1875 , is the son of Edward Haslope Pratt (a man who was born 1872 in Shropshire on all records)

I think that it is unlikely (at that time ) that a Civil Servant and an officer would use plain "Edward" when he could have used the much more floral "Edward Lancelot Knight"

It leads me to two questions

1. What do his attestation forms give as his next of kin ? I think @Winson Saw has the whole form and can check

2. Did the army officer who enlisted in 1916 marry Miss Clow ? The man who married Miss Clow was son of Ed Haslope Pratt, but I am not clear that it is the right man

1. He didn't have any children.
 

2. Yes,it's correct.The name of his wife is correct.As Torpoint History Centre has confirmed on this.They have the records.

[corisande]

3 minutes ago, Winson Saw said:

1. What do his attestation forms give as his next of kin ? I think @Winson Saw has the whole form and can check

I would be grateful if you can give us the next of kin from his attestation form(s) - otherwise we will go round in circles

I suspect Torpoint History center are just confirming the 1911 marriage that is quoted in newspapers on this thread. I am trying to establish if this is the man who attested in Dublin in 1916

[corisande]

1 hour ago, George Rayner said:

I have found a 'previous' wife for Edward Haslope Pratt

which would explain the 'second son' bit for Edward in the marriage announcements. 

This dated March 1868, Worcester Journal courtesy of Find My Past

The other son was George Edward Haslope Pratt born 9 Jun 1862

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NGHK-KYD

George got a BA from St Johns Oxford, was ordained and died 1925

Edited 26 September , 2021 by corisande

[MaureenE]

On 25/09/2021 at 18:21, corisande said:

I suspect that he never actually graduated from Oxford

A list of Oxford Graduates shows his father at Pembroke College, and his brother Rev George at St Johns College. But no mention of him on the list

In addition he never appears to use BA (or MA) after his name

Possibly, but I suspect that even if he did not complete his degree, he had got good results at University, and had probably almost completed his degree, because entry to the Colonial Civil Service at this period was by competitive examination, and my understanding is that positions were keenly sought. Possibly still with  worth while pursuing the Oxford connection. Perhaps he was at the same college as his father?

I also think at this period documentation would have been required by the Colonial Office, so that as the 1925 Malayan Civil List shows a  birth date of February 15, 1875 I think this is very likely to have e been his correct date of birth .  This means the other Edward Pratt is very likely to be a different person.

The Malayan Civil List 1925 shows that he was a Barrister-at-Law, Middle Temple, from 26-1- 20. This is therefore an avenue to pursue for a photograph.

https://www.middletemple.org.uk/about-us which says there is  "an historic archive".

If Edward Pratt is in your family tree, another option is for you to do DNA testing with a number of companies and hope that eventually you will make contact with another member of your extended family, who may have some family photos in their possession. A male cousin of mine had tests with I think 3 companies   which led to a very valuable contact through MyHeritage which resulted in family photographs of extended family, although not our grandfather

If you want to follow up a possible birth in Jamaica, see the FIBIS Fibiwiki page West Indies for sources

https://wiki.fibis.org/w/West_Indies

Maureen

 

Edited 26 September , 2021 by MaureenE

[corisande]

It is proving difficult to see who Edward Pratt really was

1. A son to Edward Haslope Pratt, baptised Edward Lancelot Knight, was born 1872. This is the only possible registered birth for an Edward Pratt

2. Edward Lancelot Knight got a Boy Clerk appointment in LG in 1889

3. In 1891 census Edward L.K is a lodger in London and a Civil Service student. This is the last mention I can find of Edward L K Pratt

4. In 1898 "Edward Pratt" is in LG as an Eastern Cadet in Colonial Office

5. There is a marriage Edward Pratt, the "second son" of Edward Haslope Pratt to a Miss Clow in 1911. The abstract I have found gives his DOB as 1875, not 1872

6. When Edward Pratt enlist in Ireland in 1916 he gives DOB as 15 Feb 1875

7. I should also add that Edward Haslope Pratt only had one child born in Jan/Mar 1875,  and that was Edith Gertrude Pratt. One would need her birth cert to see exactly her dob.

The OP may not like my conclusion, which is that Edward & Edith were the same person.

The only other conclusion is that E L K and E are the same man and that for whatever reason he lied about his DOB changing it from 1872 to 1875

The weak link is that ELK disappears and I cannot find him. And the E would have had to have had an army medical in 1916

No doubt some of the Forum members are working on this while I am typing, and perhaps can add other conclusion

[George Rayner]

Quietly going down the rabbit hole....

[George Rayner]

Trying to read through the documents presented and make sense of them...

Edward resigns from Malay States Volunteer Rifles,as a Corporal, on 23.10.15 to join Imperial Forces in Europe. He then appears as Cadet Officer 1st April 1916. 

What was the process for this please if anybody knows?

The same attestation says that his birth certificate was seen. Is it there?

George

[George Rayner]

On 21/08/2021 at 09:38, MaureenE said:

You can follow him in the Blue Book of the Straits Settlements, while he was a member of the Civil Service .

MaureenE pointed us to this. Both 1917 and 1919 have him, or at least an Edward Pratt, listed. How is that possible if he was in UK/Ireland/France?

George

[corisande]

5 minutes ago, George Rayner said:

Edward resigns from Malay States Volunteer Rifles,as a Corporal, on 23.10.15 to join Imperial Forces in Europe. He then appears as Cadet Officer 1st April 1916. 

He is down, in the OPs Malaya book, as 12 Nov 1915 "on furlough"

He appears to have joined the 3rd Royal Irish on 19 Jan 1916 in Dublin

He reappears in Malaya on 11 May 1920 on return from Military Service. I would assume that while serving he was "on furlough'",, had not resigned, and continued his career in Malaya after demob

[George Rayner]

Despite the form stating clearly that he had resigned...oh penny drops just from the Malay States Volunteer Rifles

[George Rayner]

4 hours ago, corisande said:

1. What do his attestation forms give as his next of kin ? I think @Winson Saw has the whole form and can check

Winson could you please check this?

George

[corisande]

And in Malaya Tribune, 12 March 1929, Page 5 he is clearly using 15 Feb 1875 as his DOB for his service in Colonial Civil Service

[George Rayner]

3 hours ago, MaureenE said:

https://www.middletemple.org.uk/about-us which says there is  "an historic archive".

I can't see him in January 1920

George