unprecedented trenches and bunkers in forests

[Arne Vandendriessche]

hey,

There is a website "geopunt Vlaanderen".
This is all of Flanders covered in different types of cards.
I found a map with the deeper the place, the darker it is marked on the map, so you can see, for example, the woods near the Lovie.
27.F.16.d.5.8 beautiful trenches that probably nobody knows about because it is in the middle of a forest and the trenches are not marked on trench maps (Photo: Trench 3). You can also see a lot of trenches and bunkers in the Shrewsbury Forest 28.J.25.d.0.8 (Photo: Trench 4 (not so clear)).
Even in a meadow for cows in the Heuvelland (28.N.20.d.7.2) there are also still visible that you can see afterwards on aerial photos of today (Photo: Trench1 and Trench2).
This may be useful for investigating unknown bunkers and remains of trenches in forests.
Is this method already used by archaeologists and researchers?                                                                                                                                         And do you think this is a good method?

Greetings Arne

Picture 4

Picture: Trench 3

Picture trench 1

Picture trench 2

 

Edited 18 August , 2021 by Arne Vandendriessche

[Arne Vandendriessche]

There are many more other things to be found with this.
For example, I once found a waste pit in a forest with cans of corned beef and other food. because it digested food and broke the metal, the ground there was much lower than around the waste pit.
I looked at that website and yes you saw a bit that the ground was lower there so that is very detailed.

Arne

[Arne Vandendriessche]

Hi,

Does anyone have a map or aerial photo of the Lovie showing these visible trenches? Aerial photos or maps showing the trench in Heuvelland are also welcome.

Around some trenches from the lovie you can just see tire tracks, could these be from ww1?

Arne

Edited 18 August , 2021 by Arne Vandendriessche

[Augustin]

Here is a map of the farm we do not see a trench I find it a good method to find trenches and bunkers disappeared

 

Augustin

 

[Arne Vandendriessche]

Bedankt,

 

Arne

[Arne Vandendriessche]

Does somebody else have a map from this place?
It would be nice if I found the trenches on a map/Aerial view.
coordinates: 28.N.20.d.7.2

[Augustin]

I found four trench maps the farm is named "Katte Kerkhof" you can also see a lot of trenches near the farm

Augustin

 

Edited 23 August , 2021 by Augustin

[WhiteStarLine]

3 hours ago, Arne Vandendriessche said:

28.N.20.d.7.2

Arne, if you put 28.N.20.d.7.2 into tmapper.com, then you can overlay July 11 and May 11 1918 trench maps and use the opacity slider to see the modern landscape underneath.  The trench maps are from the National Library of Scotland.

I think this is your farm but it is hard to be sure.  The photo below, courtesy IWM, is thought to be from 1918.  It says it covers 28.N.17 - 28.N.22.  Here is an extract.  I think Kemmel is the cratered area at the top RHS and the LHS road is Katterkerkhofstraat and the diagonal road is Bergstraat.  It is only a 7/10 fit and you can check the upload with opacity slider at http://mapcrop.tmapper.com/georef.html?id=kspats6t:

[Augustin]

very interesting (I take this opportunity to ask you if there would be this type of aerial photography for the village of Eecke?)

[WhiteStarLine]

Hi Arne,

Nothing of Eecke unfortunately as there weren't a lot of British and Dominion units there compared with other areas.  However, here is a July 1918 IWM photo with the farm at the left.  The entire sheet makes it clear that it is Kemmel, so 28.N.20.d.7.2 might be on the RHS with the tracks radiating out?

[Mosaic No. 1. Area from Bailleul to Kemmel 27, 28 28 M18-36, N8-33, S1-28, T1-13. Sheet 27 R34-36, X3-30 Map grid on map base 7-Jul-18 Bailleul to Kemmel 53 Sqd RFC]

[Arne Vandendriessche]

Thank you both.

In the aerial photo I can see the trench a little bit but not well because of all the bomb craters. Then on Augustin's maps, I think I see the trench on the second and third maps.
Are these on tmapper?
Because then I can check that with coordinates.

Arne

[WhiteStarLine]

Arne, tMapper has exactly the same maps Augustin posted.

If we plot 7.2 in square d, we can see the trench line reasonably clearly. 

[Arne Vandendriessche]

Hi

Its nice to see the trench on air maps.
Thanks bothe.

Arne

[Augustin]

Hello Arné
I found other maps of this farm 
one of them is of poor quality I apologize

[Augustin]

[Arne Vandendriessche]

On 24-8-2021 at 02:10, WhiteStarLine said:

Arne, als je 28.N.20.d.7.2 in tmapper.com plaatst , dan kun je de loopgravenkaarten van 11 juli en 11 mei 1918 over elkaar heen leggen en de dekkingsschuifregelaar gebruiken om het moderne landschap eronder te zien. De loopgravenkaarten zijn afkomstig uit de National Library of Scotland.

Ik denk dat dit jouw boerderij is, maar het is moeilijk om zeker te zijn. De onderstaande foto, met dank aan IWM, is vermoedelijk uit 1918. Er staat dat het 28.N.17 - 28.N.22 beslaat. Hier is een uittreksel. Ik  denk dat Kemmel het kratergebied is bovenaan RHS en de LHS-weg is de Katterkerkhofstraat en de diagonale weg is de Bergstraat. Het is slechts een 7/10 en je kunt de upload controleren met de schuifregelaar voor dekking op http://mapcrop.tmapper.com/georef.html?id=kspats6t :

Can you provide some more information about how to use this website? And do you also get to that website from tmapper?

Arne

[WhiteStarLine]

5 hours ago, Arne Vandendriessche said:

can you provide some more information about how to use this website? And do you also get to that website from tmapper?

Hi Arne,

This fitting was done using a work in progress web site replacing an older site that I was never happy with.  It is in alpha status because it lacks a help file and some of the error messages are still cryptic or non-existent.

• The old site uploaded files to the server then downloaded them again for editing.  It was very slow.  This one works on local files and a 25 MB trench map is loaded in under 3 seconds.
• The old site relied on users knowing the trench map or latitude, longitude but the new one puts up a modern map side-by-side and lets users tag points of interest common to both.

I intend putting it up on the forum for beta testing in 2 - 3 weeks.  I just need to add a drag and drop file interface (instead of file load), a compass rose (for aerial and other images that are non north-facing) and a reverse geocode (find nearest address for a given lat, lon).

The new site offers:

• Upload any image, typically a trench map, aerial photo or field sketch.
• Crop corners and correct minor scanning misalignments.
• For a trench map, specify 1:10,000 map name for autofit (eg 28SE2 uses an API to retrieve predicted corner values).
• Generate points file for QGIS map tiling.
• Specify known values for each corner or tag 4 - 6 known points as trench map references or latitude, longitude values.  Hill 60 was done from cross-referencing craters on trench maps.
• Search anywhere in the world for a location (eg Bullecourt or Salonica).
• Specify known rotation value (eg 22 degrees for an aerial photo or -1.141 degrees for Ieper trench maps).
• Tag minimum of 4 points by right clicking on modern and historical locations sequentially.
• Georef when done then use opacity slider and the following tools for advanced editing:

1. Drag.
2. Scale.
3. Distort (rubbersheet).
4. Rotate.
5. Free rotate.
6. Change opacity.

• Image Save / Undo.
• Upload to our server (must be less than 2.5 MB).
• Auto-generate permalink.
• Bookmark, share with friends, or open the link and pan, zoom, change image opacity, measure distance & bearing, change base maps.

Easiest way to see it work it is to download this sample extract to your local drive, access the temporary URL for the alpha site, load the trench map extract and right click Georef Test.  It will transform the left hand image based on 4 or 5 known points and a known rotation for trench maps in 51b.U of -1.126 degrees. 

 

[Madmeg]

Hi Arne,

The grey scale images you have posted look like .DEM files. (Digital Elevation Model) This is a method for 3d modelling (usually of existing terrains) based on the value (ie blackness) of each pixel. The file format was developed by the US Geological Survey in order to produce 3d data. The format has been kicking around for some time now but probably isn;t that well known outside of geeks interested in mapping and 3d.

I'm guessing that these were created by LIDAR? And that what you have is a .jpg (photo) file? With those files you should be able to go to a compatible programme that is able to create a 3d image from a greyscale picture (not necessarily a mapping programme, 3d modellers can sometime read these as well) and- well create yourself a 3d image of the trench network- cool eh? hmm might have a go myself :-). Note that you can't use the aerial photography to do this as cast shadows or bright sun side spots will show up as deep or high areas in the wrong places.

Blender (which is a free, but very advanced 3d modeller) can do this for you. https://johnflower.org/tutorial/make-mountains-blender-heightmaps. I know C4D can do it but that is $$$$$$s.

I tried to have a look at Tmapper but my lousy slow internet just sat there and wouldn't go into it.

You can also drop .jpg files into Google earth and spatially align them to a modern map (fiddly though). Once there you can then export the created map into some Garmin GPS models (not sure about other manufacturers.) - and then go out and your GPS will take you there- I am not advocating any trespassing on private property here  :-). I think you asked a previous question regarding mapping for GPS so I am assuming you are familiar with them- obviously you could then set a route to follow the line of the trench and track yourself following what you could actually find on the ground. This could then be combined into a map showing where the trench line actually is compared to how it was mapped.

You might also find this interesting... https://opentopography.org/learn/3D_printing :-D.

By creating a 3d model it would let you visualise the battleground but also compare the larger features (hills etc) with today in order to be able to work out where old trench lines run

 

[WhiteStarLine]

34 minutes ago, Madmeg said:

I'm guessing that these were created by LIDAR? And that 

They were my thoughts too @Madmeg

LIDAR offers great possibilities and in the UK data is freely available and looks if it could be incorporated within mapping programs.  I haven't looked at the site Arne mentioned yet, but a few of us have had a quick look through French or Belgian sources without success.  From memory you need the DEM and the LIDAR together to give you the time sequencing (eg light hits forest canopy, trees, ground in that sequence).  If you find something let me know as that is an early 2022 project.

I did some conventional 3-D models of the area von Richtofen crashed in and they were really useful to get an appreciation of the ground.  Just a slight vertical exaggeration on a rotatable image is really eye opening.  At 9 MB a bit big to post here though.

There is nothing sophisticated like this in tMapper.  It is essentially an implementation of "as a researcher, when I am at a given latitude, longitude, then I want to see the covering trench maps and change opacity so that I can relate historic to modern ground".  It has a few conversion algorithms to get you there but that is essentially what it does.

[Madmeg]

I wanted to have a look at tMapper- but- internet <sigh>

I don't know much about LIDAR- but see below. 

This is helpful

"LIDAR, which stands for Light Detection and Ranging, is a remote sensing method that uses light in the form of a pulsed laser to measure ranges (variable distances) to the Earth. These light pulses, combined with other data recorded by the airborne system generate precise, three-dimensional information about the shape of the Earth and its surface characteristics.

DEM – Digital Elevation Model. This is a raster dataset which records the ground height for each cell.

DSM – Digital Surface Model. This is a raster dataset which records the height of each cell but includes non-ground objects eg; buildings, trees, etc.

Contours – one metre contours, generated from LIDAR DEM rasters. These are available to download as shapefile, file geodatabase or google earth (kmz).

LAS – the source data format which LIDAR is supplied in. Currently you can download some areas online through the OpenTopography website in either LAS, LAZ or ASCII format." from https://www.marlborough.govt.nz/services/maps/lidar-data

and

"Lidar data is initially collected as a “point cloud” of individual points reflected from everything on the surface, including structures and vegetation. To produce a “bare earth” Digital Elevation Model (DEM), structures and vegetation are stripped away.  " from https://www.usgs.gov/faqs/what-lidar-data-and-where-can-i-download-it?qt-news_science_products=0#qt-news_science_products

 

So that explains that then :-) 

Traditionally DEM has been US based or big eye catching mountains. Opentopography shows wide coverage for the US and NZ is now coming on board - my local area recently put the local LIDAR up for download but Europe looks very sparse- and shows nothing for the UK at all.

Looking at Arne's photos it looks like raw LIDAR showing the buildings at the farm (which is actually useful for reference)

I found this... https://openaltimetry.org/data/icesat/ it's showing me passes over France but- internet <sigh> but I'm not sure how you down load the data

Search for DEM Flanders takes me here which looks like the site Arne mentions? https://overheid.vlaanderen.be/en/producten-diensten/digital-elevation-model