Remount Service - standalone unit or part of the ASC?

[charlie962]

Here is an example of what archive.org holds.

[FROGSMILE]

2 minutes ago, Chris Foster said:

 The badge with the inverted Horseshoe and Whip design was replaced in 1908  by the Rearing Horse design, and then latterly a third badge, A rearing horse facing in the opposite direction to the 2nd pattern and a slightly larger design.

As Frogsmile has suggested and as this piece suggests, perhaps some of the former members of the Remount Service wore their  original badges out of pride even after being incorporated into the ASC? https://www.lbmhs.co.uk/remount-history/ 

It might account for the rarity of photographs of them being worn and ( so far ) no evidence of the badge/badges appearing on  CWGC, Other Rank's  headstones?

I’ve been puzzled greatly by the badges Chris, because on the one hand the yellow backed chronology posted by Tom P-C above states a Remount Department formed in 1912, which doesn’t chime with your 1908 date, the crowned badge impressed with GvR implies a post 1911 Coronation date that does seem to match the timeline on the chart.

[FROGSMILE]

7 minutes ago, Chris Foster said:

 The badge with the inverted Horseshoe and Whip design was replaced in 1908  by the Rearing Horse design, and then latterly a third badge, A rearing horse facing in the opposite direction to the 2nd pattern and a slightly larger design.

As Frogsmile has suggested and as this piece suggests, perhaps some of the former members of the Remount Service wore their  original badges out of pride even after being incorporated into the ASC? https://www.lbmhs.co.uk/remount-history/ 

It might account for the rarity of photographs of them being worn and ( so far ) no evidence of the badge/badges appearing on  CWGC, Other Rank's  headstones?

Another intriguing aspect is the suggestion that there were/are looped collar badges in facing pairs which I suspect might be where the horse facing the opposite direction might come from.  It’s also been suggested to me that there’s a shoulder title (which would make sense in terms of common precedence), but so far I’ve been unable to find one and they’d be in small supply anyway given that there’s no sign of a full dress in existence and officers usually only wore shoulder titles on khaki drill.

7 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

Here is an example of what archive.org holds.

That’s useful Charlie, is it possible to home in more on specific Remount entries, or just the orders as a whole?

[charlie962]

36 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

is it possible to home in more on specific Remount entries, or just the orders as a whole?

I have to say I'm getting sidetracked. Lots of IA Orders and copies United Services of India Journal etc.  I suspect fibiswiki/Maureen*** has indexed them but I'm going to note a few here to remind me. The word Remount picks up a hit but not yet remount badge or remounts badge!

 

IA Orders 1912 part(with an appropriately named Captain Naggs appointed to the Army Remount Department wef 1909). (I think I've posted this before on Forum)

IA Orders 1915  part

IA Orders 1918 part ( badge brings up MG gunners badges etc)

IA Orders 1932  part

*** This cribbed from fibiswiki's excellent site:

Indian Army Orders

• Indian Army Orders. Include Appointments, Promotions, Long Service Medals etc. Originally Digital Library of India, now with mirror versions on Archive.org. Based on catalogue details unless otherwise specified.

1908 (catalogued Jan,vi Th, 1945) Archive.org 1908; 1910 (catalogued Jan,thired 1855) Archive.org 1910; 1912; 1922; 1923; November 1924; 1927; 1929; 1931; 1932; 1933.

Compendium of the More Important Army Order 1919. Archive.org version, mirror from Digital Library of India. Full title: Compendium of the More Important Orders of the Government of India, Army Department and India Army Orders issued from the 1st August 1914, to the 31st December 1917.

 

Edited 23 August , 2021 by charlie962

[FROGSMILE]

7 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

I have to say I'm getting sidetracked. Lots of IA Orders and copies United Services of India Journal etc.  I suspect fibiswiki/Maureen has indexed them but I'm going to note a few here to remind me. The word Remount picks up a hit but not yet remount badge or remounts badge!

 

IA Orders 1912 part(with an appropriately named Captain Naggs appointed to the Army Remount Department wef 1909. (I think I'v' posted this before on Forum)

IA Orders 1918 part ( badge brings up MG gunners badges etc)

Thank you, I’ll do some fishing around there later on.  It’s quite frustrating, as some proper records of ‘sealed patterns’ (with associated dates) would really help with our understanding, although not with the trade groups.

Edited 23 August , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[GRAZ]

I have a 15 star named to a Captain Paton of the remounts. On the London Gazette page showing his promotion, the Remount Service is shown under Cavalry 

Cheers

Graham 

[FROGSMILE]

On 14/10/2021 at 19:49, GRAZ said:

I have a 15 star named to a Captain Paton of the remounts. On the London Gazette page showing his promotion, the Remount Service is shown under Cavalry 

Cheers

Graham 

I think that the commissioned officers for the Remount Service would naturally have come under the Cavalry section of the Army List because although the responsibility for manning the bulk of the remount squadrons was passed to the ASC in 1891, it was insisted upon that the command of the remount units and depots remain a responsibility of the combatant arms.  See ‘officers service dress bronze’ insignia below.

The Remount Department had been set up in 1887 in order to ensure the consistency and suitability of animals purchased for the army, and to oversee their training. From 1891 the bulk of the men (thus not all) were to be found by the ASC, but that leaves it open as to where the others came from and, as mentioned earlier in the thread, the circumstantial evidence suggests that other men within the unit were badged to the Army Remount Service, and a few to the Army Veterinary Corps (staffing the unit vet hospital).  Just as in cavalry regiments the riding master and his staff, led by the Roughrider SNCO (later WO2), provided a self contained sub-unit of special expertise in the regiments, I think it likely that the Army Remount Service badged personnel probably provided the same service within the ASC remount squadrons, leaving the ASC personnel to run the stables.  I believe it’s significant that all the variant badges for the Army Remount Service showed one or other combinations of horse, riding whips and horseshoe, whereas the ASC personnel wore their standard pattern badge.

“The Remount Service was only responsible for supplying horses and mules for use in Britain. Animals used by the Indian Army were entirely purchased by the Indian Government and those used by the British Army in the Middle East and elsewhere were bought by the local General Officer Commanding.“

[upon the commencement of war in August 1914]…”The establishment of officers and men was also increased to cope with this number of animals, from 121 officers and 230 men in August 1914 to 423 officers and 20,560 men in 1917. Many of the Remount officers were drawn from the landed gentry, masters of fox hounds and others who had experience with horses in civilian life, thus avoiding withdrawing Army officers from their normal duties. Such Remount officers included the well known artists Alfred Munnings, Cecil Aldin and Lionel Edwards.”

See: https://www.hobyanddistricthistory.co.uk/the-army-remount-service/

 

Edited 24 October , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[GMT]

I came upon your forum today as I was researching the question of whether each Remount depot had its own cap badge which relates in sort to your original question.  I could only see one mention of women's work in the Army Remount Service and thought I'd post an interesting publication that I came across in my research, Women at War by Barbara McLaren.  My great aunt (Marjorie Smyth) helped to run the No.2 Remount Depot in Chester from 1917-1918 and worked with Dorothy Ravenscroft (p.37).  McLaren makes reference to Miss E G Bather running the Remount Depot for the War Office under Mr Cecil Aldin M.F.H. but it is not clear which depot she is referring to as there were four depots in Chester at the time.  This doesn't necessarily add much to your original forum question but is interesting nonetheless.  My aunt kept the record of Receipts for the care of upto 36 horses from 18th Aug 1917 to 27th Dec 1918 and I have a number of photo albums documenting their daily work routine.   The 'lads' in my photos appear wearing the 'Army Remount Service' badge.

https://archive.org/details/womenofwar00mclauoft/page/n7/mode/2up

Edited 28 November , 2021 by GMT

[FROGSMILE]

14 minutes ago, GMT said:

I came upon your forum today as I was researching the question of whether each Remount depot had its own cap badge which relates in sort to your original question.  I could only see one mention of women's work in the Army Remount Service and thought I'd post an interesting publication that I came across in my research, Women at War by Barbara McLaren.  My great aunt (Marjorie Smyth) helped to run the No.2 Remount Depot in Chester from 1917-1918 and worked with Dorothy Ravenscroft (p.37).  McLaren makes reference to Miss E G Bather running the Remount Depot for the War Office under Mr Cecil Aldin M.F.H. but it is not clear which depot she is referring to as there were four depots in Chester at the time.  This doesn't necessarily add much to your original forum question but is interesting nonetheless.  My aunt kept the record of Receipts for the care of upto 36 horses from 18th Aug 1917 to 27th Dec 1918 and I have a number of photo albums documenting their daily work routine.   The 'lads' in my photos appear wearing the 'Army Service Remount' badge.

https://archive.org/details/womenofwar00mclauoft/page/n7/mode/2up

Thank you very much for posting, the information is very helpful and very interesting.  After researching this subject as much as I can (but via internet only) I feel that the detail and minutiae of who did what, and wore what, isn’t yet entirely clear.  The precise interface between the ASC soldiers of the Remount Depots and the men and girls of the Army Remount Service (AMS) has yet to be clearly delineated, although I’ve tried to explain the rationale behind my theory of what that most likely was.  Your post has at least made it clear that the girls, who increased in numbers as the war, and its draw on men went on, were wearing the insignia of the AMS.  I imagine that they were formally (i.e. on paper) a part of the WAAC / QMAAC, but assigned (attached in Army parlance) to the AMS and wearing their insignia.  This was common Army policy with their employed women and a tradition that carried on with both the ATS during WW2 and the WRAC subsequently and right up until the latter’s disbandment and the distribution of women to the traditional corps where they could (then) be employed.

Edited 28 November , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[charlie962]

2 hours ago, GMT said:

Mr Cecil Aldin

He of those  comic animal sketches- I have one on the wall. Born 1870

The role played by the women (overlooked so easily!) is very useful addition to the thread

[GMT]

Hi Frogsmile,

Thank you for your response.   My great aunt trained as a VAD nurse in London (c.1916/1917) and then worked for a while at the Barbour Institute, set up as a hospital in Tattenhall, before being seconded to the Remount depot in Chester.  I had thought this might be because she was friends with Dorothy Ravenscroft but she may have volunteered, having the pre-requisite experience of hunting and handling horses.  I don't have any documentary evidence that she joined the WAAC/QMAAC unless the VADs fell under this category and could be moved around where they were best needed. 

Very little is documented about the role of women in the remount depots. One of the other question trails in this forum mentions the women at the remount depot in Russley Park, Wiltshire which was interesting.  I have an original lapel badge 'On War Service 1915' and thought it belonged to Marjorie, but would this have belonged to my grandfather, Marjorie's brother, who was in Canada at the start of the war and came over with the First Expeditionary Force in 1915?  He transferred to the RASC MT and was posted to Grove Park before going to France.  I'm not sure what this badge is for?  

Many thanks

Gill

[GMT]

Not sure if you mentioned this link above.  I am trying to find the name of the army officer who was responsible for the No.2 Remount depot in Crane Street, Chester.  It wasn't Cecil Aldin as far as I recall.   Will post if I can find it. 

https://blog.maryevans.com/army-remount-service/

 

[charlie962]

5 minutes ago, GMT said:

It wasn't Cecil Aldin as far as I recal

Nevertheless a good copy of his painting on IWM site- Remounts Depot 'The Kennels' Pangbourne Berkshire ( he was MFH South Berks, I think)

Edited 28 November , 2021 by charlie962

[FROGSMILE]

7 hours ago, GMT said:

Hi Frogsmile,

Thank you for your response.   My great aunt trained as a VAD nurse in London (c.1916/1917) and then worked for a while at the Barbour Institute, set up as a hospital in Tattenhall, before being seconded to the Remount depot in Chester.  I had thought this might be because she was friends with Dorothy Ravenscroft but she may have volunteered, having the pre-requisite experience of hunting and handling horses.  I don't have any documentary evidence that she joined the WAAC/QMAAC unless the VADs fell under this category and could be moved around where they were best needed. 

Very little is documented about the role of women in the remount depots. One of the other question trails in this forum mentions the women at the remount depot in Russley Park, Wiltshire which was interesting.  I have an original lapel badge 'On War Service 1915' and thought it belonged to Marjorie, but would this have belonged to my grandfather, Marjorie's brother, who was in Canada at the start of the war and came over with the First Expeditionary Force in 1915?  He transferred to the RASC MT and was posted to Grove Park before going to France.  I'm not sure what this badge is for?  

Many thanks

Gill

Hello again Gill,

Very early in this thread I briefly mentioned the increasing role taken on by women at the remount depots, but I didn’t want to expand on that because it was an expedient measure taken during the war that wasn’t really relevant to the specific inquiry made by the original poster, Tom.  However, I’d got my information about the women from an article that I’d stumbled upon online that stated the artist and equestrian Cecil Aldin was the man who single-handedly originated the use of women at several remount depots in Berkshire and, by doing so successfully, convinced the War Office that it was a sensible way of reducing the need for men, whilst at the same time making good use of well motivated, and in some cases, experienced females.  Here is the article concerned: https://blog.maryevans.com/army-remount-service/

I think it was as part of the later, expanded use of women, that the Russley Park convalescent and veterinary hospital establishment was set up in Wiltshire.  See also: https://susannaforrest.blog/2012/03/31/women-horses-and-world-war-one/

As regards the VAD, they were entirely the creation of a high level, joint initiative between the British Red Cross, and the Order of St John of Jerusalem, and both organisations recruited their own women volunteers, who were distinguished by minor differences between their uniforms to promote an esprit de corps for the two organisations.  They were never a part of the British Army.

It might well be that initially women were recruited by Aldin (his wife and daughter seemingly among the first), who arranged for them to be paid as civilian employees of the War Office.  However, it seems clear from your photos that later they wore Army uniform and insignia, as you’ve shown, and that would have required some form of enlistment and attestation, including the oath of allegiance and then military pay.  At that time there was no direct recruitment of women into any corps other than the discrete WAAC (later QMAAC) and so the Remounts Girls, if enlisted, would have been obliged to do the same.  Similarly, many such WAAC girls were attached to the Corps of Royal Engineers Signal Service, the Army Service Corps, and the Royal Flying Corps.  In all three of those cases the girls wore on their uniform in various ways (not always on headdress) the insignia of the corps to which they were attached.  In the case of the latter corps they broke away en-masse in April 1918 and became the first girls of the new, Royal Air Force.  

NB.  It seems that not all of the women volunteers joined the Army and wore uniform, going by publicly available photos a great many appear to have remained as civilians, and directly employed by the War Office.  Although highly irregular, it’s not impossible I suppose, that a faux uniform was created via misappropriated WAAC issue hats and misused insignia for the purposes of a ‘smart’ photograph (there are also similarities with womens’ land army clothing).  In truth your photos in uniform have confused me, as it’s a real no-no for an Army cap badge to be worn by civilians, regardless of any ersatz uniform cobbled together to look good.  Enlisting and taking the King’s shilling, with cap badge to convey that contract between individual and state, carries a legal status and wasn’t/isn’t to be imitated. 
See also the excellent study here: https://www.scribd.com/document/246260889/Women-Remount-Depots-Russley-Park-World-War-One-Sources-and-Notes

The On War Service 1915 badge was for civilian workers specifically engaged in work supporting the war effort and so nothing to do with Canadian soldiers.  It seems likely to me that it might have been a badge initially used by your forebear after she left the VAD, and perhaps in the early stages of working in Remounts, when the women were still civilian volunteers and before they were taken on by the War Office as uniformed Army personnel and enlisted.  Many of these badges related to service in munitions, but they became so popular as a marker (badge of honour) of someone “doing their bit” that many others were made privately to cover other war work.  There is a basic explanation here: https://www.iwm.org.uk/history/on-war-service-badge

Edited 28 November , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[GMT]

Thank you so much for your very detailed and helpful response and links.  I hadn’t considered that my great aunt would have had to enlist in which case she should have an army service record, I suppose.  I will follow up on this and will certainly be doing some more research on women’s work in the remount depots in Chester.  I am pleased to have had the cap badge question answered and learnt a lot more besides. 
best wishes, 

Gill

[charlie962]

7 hours ago, GMT said:

 My great aunt trained as a VAD nurse in London (c.1916/1917) and then worked for a while at the Barbour Institute, set up as a hospital in Tattenhall, before being seconded to the Remount depot in Chester. 

There's a VAD card for a Marjorie Kane Smyth aged 28. Would this be her?- perhaps not- she had a spell overseas.

There was also Marjorie Smyth, Hospital assistant. (but I see no further details for her.)

Edited 28 November , 2021 by charlie962

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, GMT said:

Thank you so much for your very detailed and helpful response and links.  I hadn’t considered that my great aunt would have had to enlist in which case she should have an army service record, I suppose.  I will follow up on this and will certainly be doing some more research on women’s work in the remount depots in Chester.  I am pleased to have had the cap badge question answered and learnt a lot more besides. 
best wishes, 

Gill

I’m glad to help Gill.  If by “cap badge” you are referring to the On War Service 1915 badge, that was a lapel badge/pin for wear on civilian clothing to demonstrate to the public at large that the wearer was doing her / his bit.

Edited 28 November , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[GMT]

I have my great aunt's original lapel badge, shown below, (and that makes sense now that she moved from the VADs to the Remount Service) but I was referring to the Remount Service insignia on their hats - I hadn't paid attention to that until I saw your GWF post and looked a lot closer at the photos I have.  I recently acquired this remount service cap badge which looks to be the same as on the ladies hats in the photos (please correct me if you think I am wrong).   The original question was asking about the Remount Service as a branch of the ASC and included the discussion on the insignia. It followed that the role of women in the Remount Service should be included.  I hope that was ok.

 

[KizmeRD]

At the start of the war, the personnel of UK based Remount Depots were either civilian or Army Service Corps soldiers; those in France, excepting the Indian Remount Depot, were borne on the strength of Army Service Corps so far as other ranks were concerned, while the officers were retired officers or others specially entertained (i.e. they retained their earlier unit designation). Later on in the war, WAAC’s provided the personnel for many of the UK based Remount Depots.

Interesting reference to the Shirehampton Depot (Bristol) below - manuscript written by Vere Brodie WAAC…

https://collection.nam.ac.uk/detail.php?acc=1998-01-26-2

MB

[FROGSMILE]

39 minutes ago, KizmeRD said:

At the start of the war, the personnel of UK based Remount Depots were either civilian or Army Service Corps soldiers; those in France, excepting the Indian Remount Depot, were borne on the strength of Army Service Corps so far as other ranks were concerned, while the officers were retired officers or others specially entertained (i.e. they retained their earlier unit designation). Later on in the war, WAAC’s provided the personnel for many of the UK based Remount Depots.

Interesting reference to the Shirehampton Depot (Bristol) below - manuscript written by Vere Brodie WAAC…

https://collection.nam.ac.uk/detail.php?acc=1998-01-26-2

MB

MB you give the impression that you haven’t read all of the thread, or am I misunderstanding you?  All of your points have been pretty much covered I think and it’s been categorically proven that not all staff/personnel of the remount squadrons were in the ASC.  There were also AVC and Army Remount Service personnel too.  The contribution of women is also well covered, initially in outline only, but with greater detail from the two links I posted just above concerning Cecil Aldin.

Edited 29 November , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

6 hours ago, GMT said:

I have my great aunt's original lapel badge, shown below, (and that makes sense now that she moved from the VADs to the Remount Service) but I was referring to the Remount Service insignia on their hats - I hadn't paid attention to that until I saw your GWF post and looked a lot closer at the photos I have.  I recently acquired this remount service cap badge which looks to be the same as on the ladies hats in the photos (please correct me if you think I am wrong).   The original question was asking about the Remount Service as a branch of the ASC and included the discussion on the insignia. It followed that the role of women in the Remount Service should be included.  I hope that was ok.

 

Hello again Gill.  Yes the cap badge you’ve posted is the one worn by the three women in a form of uniform at the remount depot.  What’s unclear to me at the moment (i.e. not yet definitively proven) is whether the women had enlisted with the WAAC, and thus are wearing a special (equestrian) type of Army uniform, along with ARS insignia, or whether they are wearing a cobbled together pseudo uniform as civilian workers, along with the Army issue Army Remount Service badge on their headdress.  It will be proven if we can show enlistment records, but I don’t know if they will have been destroyed in the Arlington Street fire.  Civilians wearing an Army cap badge would be highly irregular so a form of short-service enlistment seems likely.

As regards the ‘On War Service 1915’ lapel pin, I had imagined until you posted its image that it might have been one of the special function types that I posted above, but now I see it’s the specific type shown in the Imperial War Museum link that I posted, which was apparently that used by munitions and armaments factory workers only.  Do you know if any of your family members might have done such work?

NB.  Your photos of the girls are relatively rare I think (although a number do exist, it’s not a great many) so I imagine that the Museum of the Army Veterinary Corps (with which the Army Remount Service merged in 1921) would be interested in obtaining electronic copies, if you are willing to donate them.  The uniform aspect is really quite intriguing for the reason that I’ve explained. Unfortunately their historical collection (i.e. the AVC’s) has been absorbed in an overarching “Museum of Military Medicine”: 

Tel: 01252 523176

The Museum of Military Medicine
Keogh Barracks
Ash Vale
Aldershot
GU12 5RQ

Afternote.  As with all of the tiny Departmental corps swallowed up by larger branches of the Army the Army Remount Service has become something of a Cinderella but their story deserves to be told and I hope that you will be well received by the museum staff (often one man/woman and a dog and a few unpaid volunteers of varying enthusiasm).

Edited 29 November , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[KizmeRD]

44 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

MB you give the impression that you haven’t read all of the thread, or am I misunderstanding you?  All of your points have been pretty much covered I think and it’s been categorically proven that not all staff/personnel of the remount squadrons were in the ASC.  There were also AVC and Army Remount Service personnel too.  The contribution of women is also well covered, initially in outline only, but with greater detail from the two links I posted just above concerning Cecil Aldin.

Apologies if my post upset you - but I just wanted to shine light on the particular wartime exploits of a former VAD lady who (like GMT’s Aunt) subsequently moved on to the WAAC and who then came to be in charge of a Remount Depot of 100 plus women. Judging by recent posts, there were obviously quite a number of Remount Depots run by women. 

MB

 

[FROGSMILE]

6 minutes ago, KizmeRD said:

Apologies if my post upset you - but I just wanted to shine light on the particular wartime exploits of a former VAD lady who (like GMT’s Aunt) subsequently moved on to the WAAC and who then came to be in charge of a Remount Depot of 100 plus women. Judging by recent posts, there were obviously quite a number of Remount Depots run by women. 

MB

 

Not upset at all MB, no apologies necessary.  I was extremely interested in the details of the lady you posted, which is a great contribution to all the useful history added to this thread, for which I thank you.  It’s just that the other details you stated contradicted the information painstakingly gleaned in the rest of the thread, and so would mislead those who tend to only read the last few posts.

Edited 29 November , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[KizmeRD]

7 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

It’s just that the other details you stated contradicted the information painstakingly gleaned in the rest of the thread, and so would mislead those who tend to only read the last few posts.

If there were any misleading comments in my initial posting, then I am indeed sorry, but perhaps you could clarify for me where such contradictions exist?

As I understand it, prior to the war there were two ASC Remount Depots, one in Woolwich and the other in Dublin. Then with the prospect of a possible war with Germany looming, two further Remount Depots at Melton Mowbray (Leicestershire) and Arborfield (Berkshire) got opened in the Spring of 1814.  Unlike the two existing Depots, only key personnel at the two new Depots were in fact military (active or retired) i.e. the officer-in-charge, the veterinary officer, the quarter master and the farrier - with the remaining 50 or so staff (grooms etc.) all being civilian employees.

During the first 12 days of war being declared, well in excess if 100,000 horses had been impressed for military service, and these horses all needed schooling in the military roles that they were expected to fulfil. The four UK Remount Depots undertook this work, to enable fit and well prepared horses to be sent to France.

During the entire course of the war some 450,000 horses were purchased from UK sources and an additional 700,000 from North America. Such a huge expansion of animals (from the meagre 23,000 horses existing in the pre-war British army) meant that yet more Remount Depots had to be opened in the UK - and women were a major part of their workforce.

Advanced Remount Depots were also opened in France, and as I understand it, these units were all ASC manned. The Remount Depots in France were responsible for acclimatising the horses (and mules) and hardening them up in order to cope with harsh conditions at the Front (usually keeping hold of horses for a period of three weeks, before releasing them for active service).

MB

 

[FROGSMILE]

8 hours ago, KizmeRD said:

If there were any misleading comments in my initial posting, then I am indeed sorry, but perhaps you could clarify for me where such contradictions exist?

As I understand it, prior to the war there were two ASC Remount Depots, one in Woolwich and the other in Dublin. Then with the prospect of a possible war with Germany looming, two further Remount Depots at Melton Mowbray (Leicestershire) and Arborfield (Berkshire) got opened in the Spring of 1814.  Unlike the two existing Depots, only key personnel at the two new Depots were in fact military (active or retired) i.e. the officer-in-charge, the veterinary officer, the quarter master and the farrier - with the remaining 50 or so staff (grooms etc.) all being civilian employees.

During the first 12 days of war being declared, well in excess if 100,000 horses had been impressed for military service, and these horses all needed schooling in the military roles that they were expected to fulfil. The four UK Remount Depots undertook this work, to enable fit and well prepared horses to be sent to France.

During the entire course of the war some 450,000 horses were purchased from UK sources and an additional 700,000 from North America. Such a huge expansion of animals (from the meagre 23,000 horses existing in the pre-war British army) meant that yet more Remount Depots had to be opened in the UK - and women were a major part of their workforce.

Advanced Remount Depots were also opened in France, and as I understand it, these units were all ASC manned. The Remount Depots in France were responsible for acclimatising the horses (and mules) and hardening them up in order to cope with harsh conditions at the Front (usually keeping hold of horses for a period of three weeks, before releasing them for active service).

MB

 

MB now it appears ostensibly as if you are offended.  All that you say about the rapid expansion, and the increased volume of effort is fine, as is the point about civilian staff, retired personnel and increasing role of women.  These matters are quite well covered both in this thread (see in particular the posts by charlie962 and Chris Foster on page two), and one other that was contributed recently: https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/293777-remount-service-officer/#comment-3058507 . 
It is your (now) persistent statement that “these units were all ASC manned” that is misleading, as that is simply not true. The bulk of personnel were ASC, yes, as they had been since taking on the role circa 1890s, but there were also some AVC staff and several men badged Army Remount Service, whose photos have been posted within this thread.  Their cap badges are unmistakable, and two were even from a remount depot in Constantinople.  See all the photos on page one for examples.

 

Edited 30 November , 2021 by FROGSMILE