Munsters but why the whip ?

[Old trousers]

Family tradition has it that this Private William Burden, late Royal Warwickshires. 

Serving with the the Royal Munster Fusiliers in Italy in 1918 as a Regimental Policeman. 

My limited knowledge of cap badge leads me to think that this is correct since it appears to be from that regiment. The coloured arm band maybe confirms the RP status. 

I know that the Munsters were in Italy at that time and wonder if the uniform confirms this.  

I’m puzzled by the substantial whip he is carrying ? It looks like a bull whip or camel whip. But why would he have one ?

Any help much appreciated as always.

Paul 

[FROGSMILE]

30 minutes ago, Old trousers said:

Family tradition has it that this Private William Burden, late Royal Warwickshires. 

Serving with the the Royal Munster Fusiliers in Italy in 1918 as a Regimental Policeman. 

My limited knowledge of cap badge leads me to think that this is correct since it appears to be from that regiment. The coloured arm band maybe confirms the RP status. 

I know that the Munsters were in Italy at that time and wonder if the uniform confirms this.  

I’m puzzled by the substantial whip he is carrying ? It looks like a bull whip or camel whip. But why would he have one ?

Any help much appreciated as always.

Paul 

He’s dressed as a policeman (probably of garrison status), that’s for sure, and you might not like what I tell you.  Small numbers of policemen had to keep order in bazaars and streets where it was quite usual for them to be greatly outnumbered by local natives.  In such circumstances It wasn’t uncommon to use a whip rather like Indian policemen used a Lathi to keep order and maintain a dominant stance.   

Edited 17 August , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[PhilB]

50 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Small numbers of policemen had to keep order in bazaars and streets where it was quite usual for them to be greatly outnumbered by local natives.  In such circumstances It wasn’t uncommon to use a whip 

Would you expect this to be the case in 1918 Italy, Frog, or do you suspect the photo was taken elsewhere?

[FROGSMILE]

10 hours ago, PhilB said:

Would you expect this to be the case in 1918 Italy, Frog, or do you suspect the photo was taken elsewhere?

I suspect the photo was perhaps somewhere else in the MEF, I don’t think he’d have had reason to carry such a whip in Italy.  It doesn’t seem to be a carriage whip.  I can’t be sure of course, so just conjecture based on what I can see Phil.  It has the look of somewhere in the Middle East or Balkans.  Do you know which battalion of the Munsters it was, old trousers?

Edited 18 August , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[PhilB]

6thBn we’re in Egypt Sept 1917 to April 1918 having absorbed 7thBn.

[corisande]

The RMF Roll 9on Ancestry shows 2 William Burdens, the one from Warks does not have a RMF batn, the one from Dorsets was in 6th & 7th RMF

[FROGSMILE]

Interesting, Egypt was one of the potential locations that I had in mind.  His working dress is typical of the ports of entry area.  Perhaps old trousers had the wrong William Burden.  The former Dorset’s man seems more likely.

Edited 18 August , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Old trousers]

Dear PhilB, Corisande and Frogsmile, 

apologies for being so long replying to your very helpful posts. 
 

thanks again 

paul 

[FROGSMILE]

15 hours ago, Old trousers said:

Dear PhilB, Corisande and Frogsmile, 

apologies for being so long replying to your very helpful posts. 
 

thanks again 

paul 

It enabled small numbers of garrison policemen to control quite large crowds.  Having a pistol and whip and being willing to use either according to need and circumstance was what we’d call today a force multiplier.  It was an old school way of doing things, but was still practised as recently as Kenya (Mau-Mau 1950s) and Aden (Yemeni insurgents late 1960s).  It would be impossible today since the UK became a signatory (without military opt out) of the European Human Rights Act.  Your photo is very evocative of a different time with different ways of doing things.  When I enlisted pre EHRA we were still being exercised in the old way as part of “civil disorder training”.

Edited 30 August , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[PhilB]

I worked with an ex-Palestine Policeman in the 60s. Nice chap but had some hair raising stories about colonial policing of those days!

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, PhilB said:

I worked with an ex-Palestine Policeman in the 60s. Nice chap but had some hair raising stories about colonial policing of those days!

I can’t remember who said “the past is a foreign country, they do things differently there”, but it’s a great truism.

Edited 30 August , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[david murdoch]

 

On 17/08/2021 at 18:23, FROGSMILE said:

I suspect the photo was perhaps somewhere else in the MEF, I don’t think he’d have had reason to carry such a whip in Italy.  It doesn’t seem to be a carriage whip.  I can’t be sure of course, so just conjecture based on what I can see Phil.  It has the look of somewhere in the Middle East or Balkans.  Do you know which battalion of the Munsters it was, old trousers?

Here's a photo of my grandfather in Mesopotamia - comparing photos I'd say the photo posted is likely be Middle East or Mespot rather than Italy.

[FROGSMILE]

37 minutes ago, david murdoch said:

 

Here's a photo of my grandfather in Mesopotamia - comparing photos I'd say the photo posted is likely be Middle East or Mespot rather than Italy.

Yes I agree David, if you read further down the thread you’ll see that the consensus was that it was most likely Egypt and, (in my opinion) around the port(s) of entry area.

Edited 31 August , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[593jones]

On 30/08/2021 at 13:25, FROGSMILE said:

I can’t remember who said “the past is a foreign country, they do things differently there”, but it’s a great truism.

L P Harley.  The words are the opening line of 'The Go-Between'.  As you say, a great truism.

Edited 3 September , 2021 by 593jones

[FROGSMILE]

12 minutes ago, 593jones said:

L P Harley.  The words are the opening line of 'The Go-Between'.  As you say, a great truism.

Thank you.  Yes I find it more and more apt, as I grow older and youthful social attitudes grow more ‘woke’.

Edited 3 September , 2021 by FROGSMILE