Aircraft operating in Palestine between 1916 and oct 1918

[Gesenius]

Hallo, I am getting a little confused with something.  As I have understood things so far; BE2c's were the main aircraft flown during the sinai campaign with a couple of Bristol Scouts.  They were used in both the third gaza attack by Allenby and the Beersheba attack.  We the have the DH1a and DH2's coming in midway 1916 from the time of the Al Arish attacks.  But not so many of them.  

Then about mid 1917 the RE8's were being introduced and flown by Australians especially from Wadi Surar and just prior to the occupation of Jerusalem. 

The SE5a hispano suiza being replaced with the improved engine SE5a Wolsely Viper engine.  This was then used when during the Palestine campaign but I can not establish exactly when?

This is just a confused summary, what I am trying to establish without much success is:  Which aircraft were being used to defend Jerusalem days after its occupation by Allenby?  Was it simply a combination of RE8's and SE5a's?

[Guest]

Gesenius - I'm going to ping @b3rn.  He may have information that may throw some light on the matter.  cheers.

[Guest]

Mate,

67 Sqn (1 Sqn AFC) flown these types

BE 2c during 1916 along with a few Bristol Scout

BE2e during 1917 along with the Martinsyde G100 late 1916 and 1917

BE 12a late 1917 along with the RE 8

Bristol Fighter came around Dec 1917 and 1918

No SE 5's possibly only Brit Sqns?

 

S.B

[domsim]

This might be useful: The Royal Airforce: Air power review vol5 no 4 2002 "General Sir Edmund Allenby’s joint operations in Palestine,1917-1918"

https://www.raf.mod.uk/what-we-do/centre-for-air-and-space-power-studies/documents1/air-power-review-vol-5-no-4/

 

mentions SE5a's with OOBs

 

cheers

Dom.

 

 

[Gesenius]

Hi to all above who have responded.  Many thanks gentlemen.  Domsim, that pdf was very useful and confirmed notes I have but also gave me a lot of information about numbers and extra types of plane I never knew were in Palestine such as the Nieuports and the armstrong whitworths which I had never heard of before.  So Thankyou.

SteveBecker, I did a search but found no signs of a 62 squadron at all during the Sinai or Palestine campaign.  The only squadrons I have listed made from 5th and 40th wings are:  1, 111, 114, 145, 113, B, 142, and the one I am concentrating on the 14th squadron.  Also Steve I saw a film from the War Archives London that showed SE5's being brought out from a hanger in Palestine somewhere and its title was something like 'Australians taking out planes from their hangers' - this was quite some time ago - memory a bit fuzzy.  Now I will try and search for this again since I did not save it, if I find it I will post it, allowing for the possibility that I am mistaken by the actual plane type.

Jay26thBN, thanks for your help, if you turn up anythng I will always be interested, especially if it relates to eye-witness accounts from any pilots who flew between the 31st October and 9th december 1917 in Palestine.

Edited 18 August , 2021 by Gesenius

[Gesenius]

Hi SteveBecker,

If you go to timestamp 1 min 7 seconds, here is a good view My plane recogniion might need improving as this is a new area for me - they all look lke BE2's although there are differences as you watch the film.  They seem to have different planes here and I can't make head or tail of them to be honest, not my strong subject, but I'm trying.

https://film.iwmcollections.org.uk/record/1078

Edited 18 August , 2021 by Gesenius

[MikeMeech]

2 hours ago, Gesenius said:

Hi to all above who have responded.  Many thanks gentlemen.  Domsim, that pdf was very useful and confirmed notes I have but also gave me a lot of information about numbers and extra types of plane I never knew were in Palestine such as the Nieuports and the armstrong whitworths which I had never heard of before.  So Thankyou.

SteveBecker, I did a search but found no signs of a 62 squadron at all during the Sinai or Palestine campaign.  The only squadrons I have listed made from 5th and 40th wings are:  1, 111, 114, 145, 113, B, 142, and the one I am concentrating on the 14th squadron.  Also Steve I saw a film from the War Archives London that showed SE5's being brought out from a hanger in Palestine somewhere and its title was something like 'Australians taking out planes from their hangers' - this was quite some time ago - memory a bit fuzzy.  Now I will try and search for this again since I did not save it, if I find it I will post it, allowing for the possibility that I am mistaken by the actual plane type.

Jay26thBN, thanks for your help, if you turn up anythng I will always be interested, especially if it relates to eye-witness accounts from any pilots who flew between the 31st October and 9th december 1917 in Palestine.

[Guest]

Mate,

62 Sqn?  I wrote 67 Sqn which was like all Australian Sqns numbered by the British untill late in the war when we were allowed to show them as Australian.

So we called then 67 Sqn (1 Sqn AFC) 

SE 5's were never used by 1 Sqn AFC in Palestine, but another AFC Sqn in France did use them

BE 's (2c and 2e and 12a) and were the main aircraft we used during the war, while the others were also flown to a lesser number until the BF came into service late in the war

As for the British Sqns other may need to fill in here

S.B

[Gesenius]

2 hours ago, stevebecker said:

Mate,

62 Sqn?  I wrote 67 Sqn which was like all Australian Sqns numbered by the British untill late in the war when we were allowed to show them as Australian.

So we called then 67 Sqn (1 Sqn AFC) 

SE 5's were never used by 1 Sqn AFC in Palestine, but another AFC Sqn in France did use them

BE 's (2c and 2e and 12a) and were the main aircraft we used during the war, while the others were also flown to a lesser number until the BF came into service late in the war

As for the British Sqns other may need to fill in here

S.B

Hi Steve, yes sorry about the type error, typed 62 but did search 67 and read about it from the book Mike recommended.  Thanks Steve.  I did discover that SE5a's were requested by Allenby mid October 1917 before Beersheba but was turned down.  Then I discovered that at the end of October 111 squadron was flying out SE5a's from Juris Aerodrome and by Megiddo they had 15 SE5's roughly which increased to 21 Aircraft.  Known as the Spitfire of WW1 apparantly, Slightly better than the famed Sopwith Camel as recorded by some pilots.  

Mike, thankyou for your references, I shall be busy with these now and again, extremely helpful, thankyou.

Edited 18 August , 2021 by Gesenius

[Notes]

In the movie you linked, the planes seen are identified in the accompanying text (scroll down under the movie).  With that as a guide I was able (I think) to identify:

1) A3944 and A3946 are Martinsyde G100 "Elephant"s

2) B1150 and B1146 are Bristol F2Bs

3) Props being turned on a Martinsyde (left, probably A3944) and an F2B, with A7194 (another F2B) rolling out behind

4) Bombs being attached to a Martinsyde

5) Final instructions to pilots standing in front of a Royal Aircraft Factory RE8, with an F2B in the background

6) Most of the 'in-flight' close-ups (+5min) look like Martinsydes.

The text also mentions Bristol BE2s but I didn't see these.  They may have been among the less identifiable aircraft in the take-off sequence.

[Guest]

Mate,

1 AFC Sqn show these aircraft

Martinsyde G100

A3944 - was drawn from XAP 30-10-17 and returned 17-11-17 it was drawn again 17-1-18 and lost when caught fire on landing at Mejdel 16-2-18 shown SOC 20-2-18

A3946 - drawn 1-1-18 returned XAP 1-3-18

Bristol Fighter

B1150 - shown TOC 27-1-18 returned to XAP 30-5-18 TOC 28-10-18 returned to XAP 29-12-18

B1146 - TOC 30-1-18 lost with Capt Rutherford and Lt McElligott PoW 1-5-18 shown SOC 7-5-18

A7194 - TOC C Flt 11-1-18 returned to XAP 3-4-18 

Cheers

S.B