South Irish Horse photograph (Pte. Michael J Connell)

[vaugh]

On 10/08/2021 at 14:56, reluctantuncle said:

Hello All,

 

First time posting in this forum. Thought Id share a photo from the family album of some soldiers of the South Irish Horse and another regiment (unknown) taken in France (year and location unknown). The man in the middle row third from the left (slightly jaunty cap) was my great-grandfather Pte. Michael J Connell. He was in the SIH initially and, as shown on his medal card, was then in one of the Corps of Hussars. He was said to have been gassed and shot but he survived the conflict.

 

I can't find any other war records for him other than a medical admittance (May 1918 at 51 casualty clearing station) and can't find what other Corps he would have been in. Any help or insights would be greatly appreciated.

All the best,
Andrew

 

The SIH sergeant to the left of the officer looked familiar, what do others think? From the same family group photo is another SIH sergeant showing his Sergeants arm badge, finally the family group, sadly I've no information on when or where it was taken.

[FROGSMILE]

11 hours ago, vaugh said:

Hi,
Whilst I agree in principle with your answer I believe it's based upon erroneous information, which is that the SIH were fully formed into an infantry battalion.  This was not the case, what happened was the 1st and 2nd SIH were used as the base of an infantry battalion. James Abbott 25001 to James Younger 25910 were numbered alphabetically with an additional 84 men numbered as they came. So we have just shy of a thousand men to form the 7th (SIH) Battalion. Royal Irish Regiment. Younger a man called Daniel O'Loughlin 25676, William Kelly 25435, John Dodd 25219, James Burton 25066, Edward Fitzgerald 25298 and George Floater 25295 being the only men without an SIH number!

So these men are quite possibly part of the group of four hundred who remained as cavalry.

The other four hundred or so men remained as cavalry, a contingent went to Alexandria with the horses, saddles and associated equipment, the rest remained as corps cavalry with various duties, no diaries remain for these men and other diaries for the unit have been lost as well.

I have twelve, now thirteen men who have a full set of numbers, namely an SIH one a R Ir Regt one and a Corps of Hussars one, but that's another story altogether...

I can see that you are passionate about the regiment and have spent a great deal of time studying it in depth, which I admire and respect.  My own information is restricted entirely to the data collated by Brigadier James in his epic research, most of which has been transposed into the long long trail adjunct to the GWF.  I was aware of the merger of 1st and 2nd SIH from that source and also that A and S Squadrons of the 1st were already detached as Divisional Cavalry and then, with S Sqn retitled to B Sqn, joined B Sqn 1st Hertfordshire Yeomanry to form a three squadron strong Corps Cavalry unit.  

With all that in mind, the key aspect of the photo that started this thread seemed to me to be that the group was divided between SIH and a larger number of Northumberland Hussars Yeomanry.  I accordingly then tried to ascertain, by comparing the two regiments’ (SIH and NHY) timeline and formations, where and when they might have served together.  The only period I found that to be the case was when 1st & 2nd SIH and the NHY were both retraining as infantry at around the same time in 1917.  It’s even so, quite tenuous, but at least has the merit of being the only recorded time when the two regiments had a direct link in both chronology and location.

Edited 17 September , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[reluctantuncle]

Hi All,

 

This is great additional info. To add there is family lore that Michael was dismounted at some stage during the war, so just going on that basis might point toward a transfer to infantry. 

 

10 hours ago, vaugh said:

The SIH sergeant to the left of the officer looked familiar, what do others think? From the same family group photo is another SIH sergeant showing his Sergeants arm badge, finally the family group, sadly I've no information on when or where it was taken.

He looks slightly familiar but not sure. I will check with my father and grandfather who remember him. Still trying to source the mounted photograph and will drop in here when/if I get a copy.

Andrew

[reluctantuncle]

16 hours ago, vaugh said:

Hi again,

It's difficult to know where to start, so I'll go with the photograph. As I said above it a great example, as said by Frogsmile, the key to identifying the warrant officer seated front row fourth from the right is his arm badge. Remember these men are all dressed for mounted service!
What struck me initially about the photograph is the sight of lanyards, cap and for the most part collar badges. Given the overseas service stripes, four on the WO and two on the SIH sergeant to the left hand side of the officer, I'd say this photograph was taken in 1918, possibly after hostilities ended!
The other thing which stands out is the street sign on the building, Bure Ave? Bure is in the area of Meuse in France, I'm unsure where the front line was in relation of this place but might give some more clues as to the date of the photo.
I'll drop in again later if I have time, otherwise it might be the weekend before I come this way again...

I think it might say 'Bureau...'.

Andrew

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, reluctantuncle said:

I think it might say 'Bureau...'.

Andrew

Yes it does say Bureau.  I think that there’s a slightly obscured arrow directly alongside pointing right.

[reluctantuncle]

On 10/08/2021 at 19:31, Mark1959 said:

He appears to have gone AWOL from the SIH at Cahir on or about 17/4/16. He appears in a Police Gazette list dated 25/4/16. Trade is clerk and enlisted Limerick. Records says enlisted 24/1/16. Birth town Dublin.

Age given as 23 1/2. 5ft 7 1/4in. Pale complexion and fair hair. Marks: sc 1 eybrw mole rt scapula

Hi Mark,

 

I was wondering where you were able to find the description you mention. I can see the records on Forces website but not the description you mention. I also can't find scanned copies online. Is there somewhere they can be accessed?

 

Thanks a mil,
Andrew

[Mark1959]

It is sometime since I looked at this. Police Gazette editions are available on the British Newspaper Archive and I suspect this is where I got the info. I will try to confirm tomorrow. 

[reluctantuncle]

Thanks Mark, appreciated. I have a subscription to the Irishnewsarchive so will check there to see if they have it either.

Best,

Andrew

[Aiden Ryan]

On 16/09/2021 at 22:34, vaugh said:

Hi,

A couple of points to note, Michael Connell is one of those rare cases that prove previously held beliefs incorrect. His MIC has all the hall marks of one of the four hundred or so SIH men who did not become infantry on the 1st September 1917 when the 7th (SIH) Btn Royal Irish Regiment was formed. However, I know that the first nine hundred or so men who did transfer were allocated infantry numbers in the range 25001-25910 alphabetically by surname, Michael's number is one previously missing from my database but fits the sequence perfectly viz: Andrew Conlon 25161 and John Connolly 25163, I have about three hundred gaps thus far in my research, with thirty one missing up to 25172 Michael Corcoran.

Your assumption that this is your man is, I believe, quite correct, his number is in sequence, his place of birth etc all match so I'm at a loss to explain why his number is missing from his MIC, a clerical error perhaps? There have to have been some errors made given all the documents flying about?

Hi, 

I never realised that those who transferred were allocated infantry numbers alphabetically by surname! My grand uncle (Daniel Ryan) was #660 in the SIH and was allocated #25754 when he transferred across. 

Kind regards, 

Aiden. 

[vaugh]

On 27/01/2024 at 19:26, Aiden Ryan said:

Hi, 

I never realised that those who transferred were allocated infantry numbers alphabetically by surname! My grand uncle (Daniel Ryan) was #660 in the SIH and was allocated #25754 when he transferred across. 

Kind regards, 

Aiden. 

Indeed, William Riordan, joined Apr/May 1910 SIH 449, R Ir Regt 25753 comes before him and James Ryan, joined 18th Nov 1915 SIH 1746, R Ir Regt 25754 falls neatly after him.