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Researching Churchill & the Royal Scots Fusiliers


dclark82
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Hi all,

I've just joined the site after researching my great grandparents involvement in the WW1 and I'm keen to try find out more if possible.

My grandmother was adopted by her uncle so I'm researching both her biological father and her uncle.

I have both their service numbers and both served in the Royal Scots Fusiliers:

 -my great uncle served in the 6th Battalion - which I understand Churchill went on to command in 1916. There's a family view that he was batman to Churchill. I have no way to prove this however and there's no record of such on his medal card. His medal card said he 'deserted' and from the Forces War website I can see he was wounded in 2015. He would have been 36 in 1916 so perhaps as an older and wounded soldier it's possible he could have been a batman. Any advice on how to research further? We also believe he served in Salonika but I don't know how to find this.

- biological father - I haven't been able to find out what battalion he served but have managed to find out that he was a prisoner of war through this website.  He was captured March 28th, 1918 at Arras, France. I'm trying to work out what battle this might have been. And we know he ended up in Parchim. I can't work out the following:

1) "D"Coy

2) Wachbole

3) Hoenin

4) (unreadable) is at Parchim - I'm also not sure why there is two PA numbers (28385, 32174)

 

image.png.6a5030756712c426960f667a83f455e8.png

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2 hours ago, dclark82 said:

not sure why there is two PA numbers (28385, 32174)

Welcome to GWF.

COLLINGWOOD, Samuel, 240033, RSF

Shows he was captured Unwounded [Nicht Verw[undet]], and Arrived from front at Parchim - the PA numbers will give you a bit more info

Those will relate to two separate page/document references - usually records at two camps [each showing were at and where previously from] - you will need to look at ICRC in more depth - there is usually a red/black banner across the middle of the 'headline' card then clicking on that banner typically takes you to the option to look at additional information at the PA references [don't forget to scroll down to the exact page number for each as you don't go there directly!]

:-) M

Edited by Matlock1418
Welcome! Added name and details for clarity
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16 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

Welcome to GWF.

Shows he was captured Unwounded, and from front to Parchim - the PA numbers will give you a bit more info

Those will relate to two separate page/document references - usually records at two camps [each showing were at and where previously from] - you will need to look at ICRC in more depth - there is usually a red/black banner across the middle of the 'headline' card then clicking on that banner typically takes you to the option to look at additional information at the PA references [don't forget to scroll down to the exact page number for each as you don't go there directly!]

:-) M

Thank you. I didn’t realise you could click into each ‘headline card’. I will take a look.

From what I’ve found it looks like Henin is a place in northern France. I think referring to this place https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hénin-Beaumont where he might have been captured.

Thank you again.

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COLLINGWOOD, Samuel, 240033, RSF

You may like to know that his mother, Mrs Jane Collingwood, put in for a dependant's pension claim [must have presumed he was dead] but one card is marked Presumed Prisoner of War and unsurprisingly, since we know he was a PoW, nothing appears to have been paid out  - There are two pension cards at WFA/Fold3 [there is no main pension file as it will have been long ago destroyed once its purpose was over] - they give her address as 9 Kirkport Maybole, Ayrshire [which I seem to recall seeing on the PoW records]

:-) M

Edited by Matlock1418
added name & details for clarity
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20 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

You may like to know that his mother, Mrs Jane Collingwood, put in for a dependant's pension claim [must have presumed he was dead] but one card is marked Presumed Prisoner of War and unsurprisingly, since we know he was a PoW, nothing appears to have been paid out. - There are two cards at WFA/Fold3 - they give her address as 9 Kirkport Maybole, Ayrshire [which I seem to recall seeing on the PoW records]

:-) M

Thank you (again!). Do you have a copy of those cards you can post here? I’m not aware of what WFA/Fold3 is so will have to take a look now.

Edited by dclark82
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9 minutes ago, dclark82 said:

Do you have a copy of those cars you can post here?

Not really the done thing to ask and to get them posted [GWF Rules}.  Sometimes however they are volunteered.

You can get them by subscribing to the Western Front Association (£29 pa) [my suggestion!] or to Fold3 [Part of Ancestry] (for a greater price).

Or you can perhaps wait until Fold3 have one of their occasional free weekend!

What I can say is that they do not have much info on them beyond his name & military details and what I have posted above - just a Pension claim reference No. of D.P. 127/C

:-) M

 

Edited by Matlock1418
addit
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8 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

Not really the done thing to ask and to get them posted.  Sometimes they are volunteered.

You can get them by subscribing to the Western Front Association (£29 pa) or to Fold3 [Part of Ancestry] (for a greater price).

Or you can perhaps wait until Fold3 have one of their occasional free weekend!

What I can say is that they do not have much info on them beyond his name & military details and what I have posted above - just a Pension claim reference No. of D.P. 127/C

:-) M

 

Oh sorry, I didn't mean to offend. I'm at the beginning of my research and know very little about where to source WW1 documents.

I started my WW1 research yesterday so I'm trying to hunt down what I can. So far I'm on Ancestry, Forces War Records, and trying to find anything I can through the National archives which is proving difficult to navigate. I'll investigate WFA/Fold3 to see if they are worth joining. I'm a subscribe member on Ancestry but haven't heard about Fold3 so hopefully I don't have to pay again.

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Just now, dclark82 said:

Oh sorry, I didn't mean to offend. I'm at the beginning of my research and know very little about where to source WW1 documents.

I started my WW1 research yesterday so I'm trying to hunt down what I can. So far I'm on Ancestry, Forces War Records, and trying to find anything I can through the National archives which is proving difficult to navigate. I'll investigate WFA/Fold3 to see if they are worth joining. I'm a subscribe member on Ancestry but haven't heard about Fold3 so hopefully I don't have to pay again.

No offence taken - just didn't want you running foul of the GWF Rules and Moderators! [they are not that fierce but can explain/enforce in their own ways!] - As a 'Newbie' you can get away with a bit, but ...

GWF is a really good place to have joined.  Always worth you looking at the Long Long Trail [parent organisation to GWF - see tab at top of the forum thread screen] for units and soldiers etc. - but here is a quick link to researching soldiers https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers

WFA https://www.westernfrontassociation.com and its resources and benefits is a reasonable option - certainly in my opinion - new members always welcomed!

I'm afraid Fold3 is a pay again subscription [on top of Ancestry]!!  Or wait for a free weekend!!!

BTW Not everyone can see that Forces War Records link [I can't] - can you pop up your ggu's name and number please?

:-) M

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Hi dclark82,

Welcome to the Forum.

240033 Sergeant Samuel Collingwood (born on 4.4.1899 in Wachbole, Ayrshire {the spelling may be incorrect] of 'D' Company, 1st Battalion. Royal Scots (Fusiliers) Regiment, captured unwounded on 28.3.1918 at Hoenin - having been taken PoW arrived at Parchim from the front.

NB - he might not necessarily have been held captive there for any length of time. The camp may have just administered his captivity.

image.png.fafe29ec40bf04ca3a8d5020a8df7239.png
Image sourced from archive.org

The date of 28.3.1918 would tie in with the massive German Spring offensive which started on 21.3.1918.

If you register with the National Archives (at no cost) the Battalion War diary (link), and those of 8 Infantry Brigade HQ (link) and 3 Division HQ (link) can be downloaded free of charge, and may give you a lot more context about of the circumstances of when he was captured.

They will probably contain some map references. There is help on how to read them here.

Regards
Chris

 

 

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15 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

No offence taken - just didn't want you running foul of the GWF Rules and Moderators! [they are not that fierce but can explain/enforce in their own ways!] - As a 'Newbie' you can get away with a bit, but ...

GWF is a really good place to have joined.  Always worth you looking at the Long Long Trail [parent organisation to GWF - see tab at top of the forum thread screen] for units and soldiers etc. - but here is a quick link to researching soldiers https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers

WFA https://www.westernfrontassociation.com and its resources and benefits is a reasonable option - certainly in my opinion - new members always welcomed!

I'm afraid Fold3 is a pay again subscription [on top of Ancestry]!!  Or wait for a free weekend!!!

BTW Not everyone can see that Forces War Records link [I can't] - can you pop up your ggu's name and number please?

:-) M

Okay, so I've managed to link my Ancestry and Fold3 accounts now. But yes, another subscription required. :( Looks like I can get a 7 day free trial so need to make sure I line up all the information to search for and maximise those 7 days and then cancel. :) I'll take a look at WFA.

As for your last question, the two soldiers are:

Samuel Collingwood /  Sergeant / Royal Scots Fusiliers (possible 1st battalion) / Service Number: 240033

Arthur Collingwood / Private / Royal Scots Fusiliers (6th battalion) / Service Number: 12013

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Just now, dclark82 said:

Arthur Collingwood / Private / Royal Scots Fusiliers (6th battalion) / Service Number: 12013

Thanks - now I/we all can see the second rabbit!

:-) M

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8 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

Thanks - now I/we all can see the second rabbit!

:-) M

Ha. Yes, both have interesting stories. Sam POW, Arthur wounded/deserted and apparently becomes Churchill's batman (or so we're led to believe).

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COLLINGWOOD, Arthur M, 12013, RSF

At Ancestry - One of the two Medal Rolls from which his MIC was compiled, the BWM & VM one, shows  "No Medals"  "Deserted 21.9.18"

At WFA/Fold3 - No sign of any Pension Claim by him or any other/dependant person

:-) M

Edited by Matlock1418
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42 minutes ago, clk said:

Hi dclark82,

Welcome to the Forum.

240033 Sergeant Samuel Collingwood (born on 4.4.1899 in Wachbole, Ayrshire {the spelling may be incorrect] of 'D' Company, 1st Battalion. Royal Scots (Fusiliers) Regiment, captured unwounded on 28.3.1918 at Hoenin - having been taken PoW arrived at Parchim from the front.

NB - he might not necessarily have been held captive there for any length of time. The camp may have just administered his captivity.

image.png.fafe29ec40bf04ca3a8d5020a8df7239.png
Image sourced from archive.org

The date of 28.3.1918 would tie in with the massive German Spring offensive which started on 21.3.1918.

If you register with the National Archives (at no cost) the Battalion War diary (link), and those of 8 Infantry Brigade HQ (link) and 3 Division HQ (link) can be downloaded free of charge, and may give you a lot more context about of the circumstances of when he was captured.

They will probably contain some map references. There is help on how to read them here.

Regards
Chris

 

 

Thank you for the reply. 

'D company' - how did I not see that?! Obvious now. 

Wachbole should read Maybole. 

Thank you for the links. I've downloaded although it might take some time to review - lots of pages! :)

 

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Hi, 

Re Samuel

If you have the right man, as you have access to Ancestry his medal roll record is here. It intimates that his overseas service was with the 1st Battalion, and that as he doesn't appear to have qualified for a Star medal, that would imply that he didn't go abroad until at least after the end of 1915. I think that you can probably push the further forward in time to at least after the start of 1917. The reason I say that is his 240033 service number appears to be one that fell within the number block allocated to the line units of the 5th Bn when the TF were renumbered in 1917 (link). The implication of that is that he may have originally served in the UK as a territorial in the RSF (probably under a 4 digit number) renumbered to the 6 digit number block, the sent overseas as a reinforcement, and serving in the 'regular' 1st Bn.

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Hi,

When the TF renumbered in 1917, units often seem to have renumbered their men based sequentially (allowing for 'fall outs') on their previous 4 digit regimental number, rather than say alphabetically. Whilst more work would be needed that might enable you to make a reasonable inference about Samuel. For example, just looking at a couple of records for 5th Bn men shows:

240022/6166 Campbell - attested 15.12.1908
240024/6181(?) Sproule - attested 22.12.1908
240032/6368 Caldwell - attested 11.03.1909

Regards
Chris

 

 

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Hi and welcome to the forum 

Just another record to add to your collection. FMP has a record of a Red Cross enquiry:-

War  First World War, 1914-1918
Record set  British Red Cross & Order Of St John Enquiry List, Wounded & Missing, 1914-1919
First name(s)  Sam
Last name  Collingwood
Soldier number  240033
Regiment  Royal Scots Fusiliers
Battalion  1
Company  D
M. (W etc) Date or Equiv  28/03/1918
Theatre of war  B.E.F.
Enquiry date  02/08/1918
Country  Great Britain
M. (W etc) if given. For infantry amplify any extra unit details given  M. Mar. 28/18.

The Negatife Enyoye (nothing to send?) on on the ICRC document you posted would have caused grief to the family, fortunately they later learnt he survived. 

As a complete aside, my research centres on the fallen of Fletton,  Peterborough.

In a later conflict Douglas Sowman was killed as batman (bodyguard) to Major Randolph Churchill ( Churchill's son) on 16/7/1944. Looks like the Churchill's batmen had a hard time of it.

https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/2224389/DOUGLAS JOHN SOWMAN/

Kind Regards

Derek

Edited by Swinesheadvillage
punctuation
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13 hours ago, Swinesheadvillage said:

Hi and welcome to the forum 

Just another record to add to your collection. FMP has a record of a Red Cross enquiry:-

War  First World War, 1914-1918
Record set  British Red Cross & Order Of St John Enquiry List, Wounded & Missing, 1914-1919
First name(s)  Sam
Last name  Collingwood
Soldier number  240033
Regiment  Royal Scots Fusiliers
Battalion  1
Company  D
M. (W etc) Date or Equiv  28/03/1918
Theatre of war  B.E.F.
Enquiry date  02/08/1918
Country  Great Britain
M. (W etc) if given. For infantry amplify any extra unit details given  M. Mar. 28/18.

The Negatife Enyoye (nothing to send?) on on the ICRC document you posted would have caused grief to the family, fortunately they later learnt he survived. 

As a complete aside, my research centres on the fallen of Fletton,  Peterborough.

In a later conflict Douglas Sowman was killed as batman (bodyguard) to Major Randolph Churchill ( Churchill's son) on 16/7/1944. Looks like the Churchill's batmen had a hard time of it.

https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/2224389/DOUGLAS JOHN SOWMAN/

Kind Regards

Derek

Thank you Derek. This is the first time I'm seeing BEF listed against Samuels name which helps me understand where he might have served. 

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