Information in Pension Records

[George Lee Temple]

I am trying to discover more of the Great War service of 14148 Driver Arthur William (sometimes Willie) Forder RFA.

He enlisted on 31 March 1915 and was discharged on 10 July 1917 due to sickness, possibly bronchitis (being awarded Silver War Badge 209026).

MIC and SWB cards confirm overseas service, with BWM & VM awarded.

Unit from which he was discharged was 2C Reserve Brigade RFA at Catterick. As far as I can ascertain, 2C Reserve Brigade included all the RA soldiers in Catterick hospital and/or was the unit which administered RA military discharges.

There are no surviving servuce documents. He died in 1942 (he was a pub landlord and, by all accounts, drank most of the profits - he died of cirrhosis of the liver) and whether the records were destroyed by the Luftwaffe or weeded out by an archivist to create more shelf space after his death is moot.

There are surviving pension records which I have yet to access: are these likely to provide any RFA sub-unit/ service details other than 2C Reserve Brigade ?

[Matlock1418]

12 minutes ago, George Lee Temple said:

There are surviving pension records which I have yet to access: are these likely to provide any RFA sub-unit/ service details other than 2C Reserve Brigade ?

No they won't, only 2/RFA recorded.

He got 22/- pw from 11.7.17 to 8.1.18 [equivalent/representative of 80% disability at that time]

:-) M

[PRC]

25 minutes ago, George Lee Temple said:

I am trying to discover more of the Great War service of 14148 Driver Arthur William (sometimes Willie) Forder RFA.

He enlisted on 31 March 1915 and was discharged on 10 July 1917 due to sickness, possibly bronchitis (being awarded Silver War Badge 209026).

There are surviving service records for 14150 Driver Ernest Robert Kerwood, who attested on the 7th April 1916 at Camberwell. He was subsequenty mustered as a Gunner (22nd June 1916) before ending up with the Royal Defence Corps (service number 85353) as a result of ill-health following being Gassed on the 3rd January 1918 and medically repatriated to the UK.

There are two Casualty form –Active Service in his file which makes for confusing reading.

The first states he was then posted to 26 Reserve Battery, 4a Reserve Brigade RFA on the 26th April 1916. He was with “56th” Reserve Battery, (so possibly a typo) when he was sent overseas on the 11th May 1916. He was posted to the 17th V on the 28th May 1916 – that is most likely “V” Trench Mortar Battery, in the 17th Division. He mustered to Gunner by “D.T.M.O”, 17th Division on the 2nnd June 1916, (suspect that stands for Divisional Trench Mortar Officer). The OC 17th Trench Mortar Battery records him posted to V Battery in the Field on the 15th August 1916.

The second has him initially posted to 162 Brigade on the 7th April 1915. He had 14 days in detention from the 12th June to the 24th June 1915 while serving with the same unit. By the 15th December 1915 he was a Gunner with 4 Reserve Brigade. On the 5th January 1916 he was posted to 5 Reserve Brigade – at which point he went AWOL, returning on the 14th February 1916 and earning himself three weeks detention. He was posted to 4 Reserve Brigade on the 26th April 1916. After that the entries pretty much tie up with the first report.

The Medical History says he went first of all to D Battery, 162nd Brigade.

Given the variety of postings I cannot say how much the army career of Ernest Robert Kerwood is comparable to that of Arthur William Forder, but a wider search could bring up other men with surviving service records. Looked at in total these may throw up patterns that may have been applicable to Arthur.

Hope that is of interest,
Peter

 

[George Lee Temple]

On 05/08/2021 at 14:27, PRC said:

There are surviving service records for 14150 Driver Ernest Robert Kerwood, who attested on the 7th April 1916 at Camberwell. He was subsequenty mustered as a Gunner (22nd June 1916) before ending up with the Royal Defence Corps (service number 85353) as a result of ill-health following being Gassed on the 3rd January 1918 and medically repatriated to the UK.

There are two Casualty form –Active Service in his file which makes for confusing reading.

The first states he was then posted to 26 Reserve Battery, 4a Reserve Brigade RFA on the 26th April 1916. He was with “56th” Reserve Battery, (so possibly a typo) when he was sent overseas on the 11th May 1916. He was posted to the 17th V on the 28th May 1916 – that is most likely “V” Trench Mortar Battery, in the 17th Division. He mustered to Gunner by “D.T.M.O”, 17th Division on the 2nnd June 1916, (suspect that stands for Divisional Trench Mortar Officer). The OC 17th Trench Mortar Battery records him posted to V Battery in the Field on the 15th August 1916.

The second has him initially posted to 162 Brigade on the 7th April 1915. He had 14 days in detention from the 12th June to the 24th June 1915 while serving with the same unit. By the 15th December 1915 he was a Gunner with 4 Reserve Brigade. On the 5th January 1916 he was posted to 5 Reserve Brigade – at which point he went AWOL, returning on the 14th February 1916 and earning himself three weeks detention. He was posted to 4 Reserve Brigade on the 26th April 1916. After that the entries pretty much tie up with the first report.

The Medical History says he went first of all to D Battery, 162nd Brigade.

Given the variety of postings I cannot say how much the army career of Ernest Robert Kerwood is comparable to that of Arthur William Forder, but a wider search could bring up other men with surviving service records. Looked at in total these may throw up patterns that may have been applicable to Arthur.

Hope that is of interest,
Peter

 

 

On 05/08/2021 at 14:27, PRC said:

There are surviving service records for 14150 Driver Ernest Robert Kerwood, who attested on the 7th April 1916 at Camberwell. He was subsequenty mustered as a Gunner (22nd June 1916) before ending up with the Royal Defence Corps (service number 85353) as a result of ill-health following being Gassed on the 3rd January 1918 and medically repatriated to the UK.

There are two Casualty form –Active Service in his file which makes for confusing reading.

The first states he was then posted to 26 Reserve Battery, 4a Reserve Brigade RFA on the 26th April 1916. He was with “56th” Reserve Battery, (so possibly a typo) when he was sent overseas on the 11th May 1916. He was posted to the 17th V on the 28th May 1916 – that is most likely “V” Trench Mortar Battery, in the 17th Division. He mustered to Gunner by “D.T.M.O”, 17th Division on the 2nnd June 1916, (suspect that stands for Divisional Trench Mortar Officer). The OC 17th Trench Mortar Battery records him posted to V Battery in the Field on the 15th August 1916.

The second has him initially posted to 162 Brigade on the 7th April 1915. He had 14 days in detention from the 12th June to the 24th June 1915 while serving with the same unit. By the 15th December 1915 he was a Gunner with 4 Reserve Brigade. On the 5th January 1916 he was posted to 5 Reserve Brigade – at which point he went AWOL, returning on the 14th February 1916 and earning himself three weeks detention. He was posted to 4 Reserve Brigade on the 26th April 1916. After that the entries pretty much tie up with the first report.

The Medical History says he went first of all to D Battery, 162nd Brigade.

Given the variety of postings I cannot say how much the army career of Ernest Robert Kerwood is comparable to that of Arthur William Forder, but a wider search could bring up other men with surviving service records. Looked at in total these may throw up patterns that may have been applicable to Arthur.

Hope that is of interest,
Peter

 

Thanks for this. Unlike the infantry, I've not been able to deduce anything from the allocation of RFA service number blocks. My assumption is that Arthur Forder attested in his home town of Norwich, but the possibility that he attested in London opens a new path of potential enquiry. Given your stated particular interest, I might add that Arthur Forder was landlord of the Morning Star in Lakenham. His wife was a starch packer at Colman's when they met; a recent widow as her husband (another former Colman's employee) had died of heatstroke in Basra while serving as a Driver with 388th Battery.

[David Porter]

On 05/08/2021 at 14:27, PRC said:

There are surviving service records for 14150 Driver Ernest Robert Kerwood, who attested on the 7th April 1916 at Camberwell.

Ernest is missing an "L" prefix being enlisted into 162nd Brigade RFA on April 7, 1915. L/14146 George Daniel Underwood also enlisted at Camberwell on April 7, 1915. It would appear that Arthur is also missing his "L" prefix even though his date of enlistment is the week before. The only time 14148 was issued from the Regular series during the war was to Archibald Hone on September 8, 1914 at Woolwich.

According to medical records Arthur arrived at Catterick from Bagthorpe Hospital, Nottingham, on April 30, 1917 with Bronchitis and was posted to 41st Reserve Battery, 2C Reserve Brigade RFA. He had completed 2 years service and 8 months overseas. He spent 71 days under treatment and was discharged to his home on July 10, 1917.

[PRC]

2 hours ago, George Lee Temple said:

I might add that Arthur Forder was landlord of the Morning Star in Lakenham. His wife was a starch packer at Colman's when they met; a recent widow as her husband (another former Colman's employee) had died of heatstroke in Basra while serving as a Driver with 388th Battery.

I don't know if you've found this on the Norfolk Pubs website - looks like Arthur was the licensee from the 23rd May 1933. https://www.norfolkpubs.co.uk/norwich/mnorwich/ncmos3.htm

Presumably the Ruth who took over the license in 1942 was his widow and possibly William Fred, licensee from 1956, was a son. Certainly that is how the household looks on the 1939 Register.

And apologies about the 1915/16 mix-up - I told you those documents were confusing

Cheers,
Peter

[George Lee Temple]

12 hours ago, PRC said:

I don't know if you've found this on the Norfolk Pubs website - looks like Arthur was the licensee from the 23rd May 1933. https://www.norfolkpubs.co.uk/norwich/mnorwich/ncmos3.htm

Presumably the Ruth who took over the license in 1942 was his widow and possibly William Fred, licensee from 1956, was a son. Certainly that is how the household looks on the 1939 Register.

And apologies about the 1915/16 mix-up - I told you those documents were confusing

Cheers,
Peter

Thanks for this. Ruth (nee Hooper, formerly Edwards) was the widow. William Fred (Billy) was the younger of two sons. By 1956 the elder, Arthur Albert, was probably in Yarmouth (AA Forder, Draper & General House Furnisher had a shop on Fuller's Hill and, when that was redeveloped, 57 North Quay): that's where Ruth moved to. Arthur Albert was RN in WW2. Ruth had two brothers, William (whose WW1 service I have yet to trace) & Frederick Louis. Fred was 2/6th Norfolks before being sent to Hawke Battalion RND. Ruth's sister, Alice (who worked at Howlett & White's) married Gallipoli veteran Arthur Sheldon (Norfolk Yeomanry & MGC). Ruth's first husband, Arthur Edwards, had previously served with the 69th Div Ammunition Column.

[George Lee Temple]

On 06/08/2021 at 17:58, David Porter said:

Ernest is missing an "L" prefix being enlisted into 162nd Brigade RFA on April 7, 1915. L/14146 George Daniel Underwood also enlisted at Camberwell on April 7, 1915. It would appear that Arthur is also missing his "L" prefix even though his date of enlistment is the week before. The only time 14148 was issued from the Regular series during the war was to Archibald Hone on September 8, 1914 at Woolwich.

According to medical records Arthur arrived at Catterick from Bagthorpe Hospital, Nottingham, on April 30, 1917 with Bronchitis and was posted to 41st Reserve Battery, 2C Reserve Brigade RFA. He had completed 2 years service and 8 months overseas. He spent 71 days under treatment and was discharged to his home on July 10, 1917.

I've been in touch with th Bagthorpe Isolation hospital historian & am awaiting a reply. There is no obvious distinct WW1 role for Bagthorpe suggesting that it continued to operate as an isolation hospital. I think that it is possible that Arthur was sent there for assessment because he was suspected of having something other than Bronchitis. I have asked if Bagthorpe have any medical records, in the hope that these may identify where Arthur came from.

I've ruled out the possibility that he was gassed - I have been looking at 77328 Gunner Monty (Montague) Daniels who was discharged from 3c Reserve Brigade RFA (Deepcut) on 1.2.1919 and his SWB record clearly states 'gas poisoning' whereas Arthur's is 'sickness'.

I think that the 2 years 8 months must be total service, of which part was overseas (hence the medals & no star). 

 

[ss002d6252]

25 minutes ago, George Lee Temple said:

I think that it is possible that Arthur was sent there for assessment because he was suspected of having something other than Bronchitis. I have asked if Bagthorpe have any medical records, in the hope that these may identify where Arthur came from.

The pension would certainly support that idea. Bronchitis is unlikely to give an 80% disability so the discharge medical seems to have picked something more up.

Craig

[David Porter]

40 minutes ago, George Lee Temple said:

I think that the 2 years 8 months must be total service, of which part was overseas (hence the medals & no star).

Only 2 years service, 8 months of which was spent overseas. Good luck with the Bagthorpe request.

[Matlock1418]

2 hours ago, George Lee Temple said:

I've been in touch with th Bagthorpe Isolation hospital historian & am awaiting a reply. There is no obvious distinct WW1 role for Bagthorpe suggesting that it continued to operate as an isolation hospital. I think that it is possible that Arthur was sent there for assessment because he was suspected of having something other than Bronchitis. I have asked if Bagthorpe have any medical records, in the hope that these may identify where Arthur came from.

 

1 hour ago, ss002d6252 said:

The pension would certainly support that idea. Bronchitis is unlikely to give an 80% disability so the discharge medical seems to have picked something more up.

The obvious question/possibility might be for a respiratory condition and an isolation hospital = Was it pulmonary tuberculosis [phthisis]?

80% disability is however an odd one as usually phthisis was given 100% - Who wants a TB sufferer going out to work and spreading it?  [I think this was even discussed in Parliament/Hansard]

Would be fascinating if Bagthorpe has any records it can release.

:-) M

[ss002d6252]

27 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

 

The obvious question/possibility might be for a respiratory condition and an isolation hospital = Was it pulmonary tuberculosis [phthisis]?

80% disability is however an odd one as usually phthisis was given 100% - Who wants a TB sufferer going out to work and spreading it?  [I think this was even discussed in Parliament/Hansard]

Would be fascinating if Bagthorpe has any records it can release.

:-) M

Exactly what I was thinking.

Off the top of my head this will pre-date the 100% TB assessment changes as I think they came in later.

Craig

[George Lee Temple]

2 hours ago, David Porter said:

Only 2 years service, 8 months of which was spent overseas. Good luck with the Bagthorpe request.

Thanks, must have misunderstood. !

 

[George Lee Temple]

2 minutes ago, ss002d6252 said:

Exactly what I was thinking.

Off the top of my head this will pre-date the 100% TB assessment changes as I think they came in later.

Craig

 

2 minutes ago, ss002d6252 said:

Exactly what I was thinking.

Off the top of my head this will pre-date the 100% TB assessment changes as I think they came in later.

Craig

Sounds like Bagthorpe thought they knew what the ailment wasn't but couldn't identify it so put the peristent symptons down to 'Bronchitis'. When that didn't clear up at Catterick he was discharged. Presumably the % disability was calculated on the impact the symptons had on his ability to work, though without any medal records it is difficult to speculate with any accuracy. Of course, we are looking at a period when medicine was still very much more of an art than a science. I have looked in to the service of an RAMC orderley who served in the Dardanelles, India, Egypt, East Africa, Mespot & on the NW Frontier (he deserted in 1918 but was caught) and seems to have spent most of his time being assessed/treated for dysentry and/or enteric. In 1920 he claimed to have perforated eardrums and his final medical examiner decreed that her was suffering from flatulence and that was not a disability, endorsed with a note 'Flatulence of little importance'. No idea what he was actually suffering with. Re contagion controls, I have been looking at local government response to the 1918 Pandemic and that seems to have been minimal, though were are some temporary school closures.

[ss002d6252]

1 minute ago, George Lee Temple said:

Presumably the % disability was calculated on the impact the symptons had on his ability to work

It was against his degree of disablement rather than ability to work per se (although obviously both can be connected).

Craig

[Matlock1418]

1 hour ago, George Lee Temple said:

Of course, we are looking at a period when medicine was still very much more of an art than a science.

They could identify TB pretty well - but the treatment for it [and many other infections], without antibiotics, was rather rudimentary at that time.

I think you had to especially hope you didn't get influenza on top of it.

:-) M

[George Lee Temple]

On 06/08/2021 at 16:15, George Lee Temple said:

 

Thanks for this. Unlike the infantry, I've not been able to deduce anything from the allocation of RFA service number blocks. My assumption is that Arthur Forder attested in his home town of Norwich, but the possibility that he attested in London opens a new path of potential enquiry. Given your stated particular interest, I might add that Arthur Forder was landlord of the Morning Star in Lakenham. His wife was a starch packer at Colman's when they met; a recent widow as her husband (another former Colman's employee) had died of heatstroke in Basra while serving as a Driver with 388th Battery.

I note that L14146 Driver George Daniel Underwood died on 16.8.1916. with the 33rd TMB, so there may be something to the idea that AWF was TMB ? Still nothing from Bagthorpe...