Charles William Howe 1890-1957

[howe2010]

My great grandad Charles Wm Howe - I never met him and only have tiny bits of info. about him. My dad told me he was a batman and I found this photo of him somewhere in France? The horse looks just like war horse from the film.

Apart from those scanty facts I can find nothing about his service - he lived in Stoke on Trent and would most likely have joined the North Staffords but I can't be certain.

[howe2010]

This is the original photo - can anyone identify the place?

[EDWARD1]

Possible Family Tree hereCharles William Howe - Facts (ancestry.co.uk)  

[Michelle Young]

He is wearing the Imperial Service tablet in the first photo, denoting he was. territorial soldier. Cap badge isn't N Staffs. The badge looks like Royal Engineers but the shoulder title is too long, might be 13th Hussars. 

@FROGSMILE and @CorporalPunishment Will have better ideas. 

[FROGSMILE]

Possibly Queen’s Own Dorset Yeomanry, Michelle.

Edited 5 August , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Michelle Young]

I did think of that.....not had enough caffeine yet. 

[FROGSMILE]

4 minutes ago, Michelle Young said:

I did think of that.....not had enough caffeine yet. 

You’re right that the RE (TF) is also possible, as some of their trades were mounted as you know.  The Dorset Yeomanry’s badge isn’t unlike the RE, and the Imperial Service tablet sits well with that possibility.

All that said it doesn’t sit well with the geographic location of Stoke on Trent at all so I don’t think we’re there yet!

Edited 5 August , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Michelle Young]

The shoulder titles didn't look right for RE though. 

[FROGSMILE]

13 minutes ago, Michelle Young said:

The shoulder titles didn't look right for RE though. 

Unless regional or a signal service line layer (the latter a little less likely given the Imperial Service Tablet, but not impossible).

In all the photos it’s clear that his shoulder title is a single row though, and that doesn’t chime well with pre war TF (and the Imperial Service Tablet), for whom the T and Y (if yeomanry) was a given.  It’s rather curious.

Edited 5 August , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Swinesheadvillage]

Hi 

I would be wary of the medal index card on the Ancestry tree. Howe, 70234,, RE TF, has surviving service papers showing his and his father's address as 222 Albany Road, Camberwell, London. This CW Howe was a telegraphist, the OP's CW Howe on the 1911 census was a coal miner, waggoner.

Kind Regards

Derek

[FROGSMILE]

It’s a relatively large badge and of distinctive shape.  With those two factors added together it reminds me a great deal of the City of London Yeomanry (Rough Riders), whose badge was one of the largest worn by yeomanry.  It might be that he started with a local regiment but during the course of the war was compulsorily transferred following sickness or wounds and recovery.  There’s a story behind his insignia, it’s a question of digging it out.  None of the other badge shapes fit, although I’ll be interested to learn what @CorporalPunishmentmakes of it.

Edited 5 August , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[CorporalPunishment]

Frogsmile, I can see what you mean with the City of London Yeomanry but although the badge looks quite large I don't think it's large enough for the CLY. Also the shoulder titles don't fit the bill either, being neither RR or the two-line ROUGH RIDERS type. It certainly appears to be an Infantry shoulder title but that cap badge is the puzzling bit.   Pete.

[FROGSMILE]

32 minutes ago, CorporalPunishment said:

Frogsmile, I can see what you mean with the City of London Yeomanry but although the badge looks quite large I don't think it's large enough for the CLY. Also the shoulder titles don't fit the bill either, being neither RR or the two-line ROUGH RIDERS type. It certainly appears to be an Infantry shoulder title but that cap badge is the puzzling bit.   Pete.

Yes, the two aspects don’t square with each other at all, Pete.  Unless we can trace this fellow’s medal index card, or some other relevant documents, I don’t see how much further we can take this. 

Given his Territorial Force association at least one of his units must be associated with where he was living at the time.  So we need to be looking at Midlands units.

Edited 5 August , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[howe2010]

Thanks for all the comments.

I wonder if this helps - Charles wm and his soldier brothers c.1916

[FROGSMILE]

Definitely Corps of Royal Engineers.  All of them!  A much better photo.  @Michelle Young’s excellent eyes score again.

”The 1st North Midland Field Company was based at the Drill Hall in Broomfield Road, Smethwick, while the HQ of the Divisional Engineers and the newly raised 2nd North Midland Field Company was at Norton Hall in Norton Canes, near Cannock, the family home of Lt-Col W.E. Harrison, whose coal mining employees formed the bulk of the personnel. Harrison was appointed Commanding Royal Engineer (CRE) of the North Midland Division on 25 May 1912. The newly formed Divisional Telegraph (later Signal) Company, RE, was based at the Drill Hall at Routh Street in Stoke on Trent”.

”The order to mobilise was received on 4 August 1914. Shortly afterwards, the men were invited to volunteer for overseas service, and the majority having accepted this liability [Imperial Service tablet refers] , the North Midland Division concentrated at Luton. In November it moved to the area round Bishop's Stortford where it completed its war training”.

”Meanwhile, the men who had not volunteered for foreign service, together with the recruits who were coming forward, remained at the drill halls to form 2nd Line units designated the 2/1st and 2/2nd North Midland Field Companies, while the parent units took a '1/' prefix. Later the 1/3rd and 3/1st Field Companies were formed. The 2nd Line units joined the 2nd North Midland Division”.

”The first unit of the North Midland engineers to go overseas was the 1/1st NM Field Company, which was posted to the 28th Division, formed of Regular Army battalions brought back from India and other imperial postings. The company joined the division assembling at Winchester on 26 December 1914, and landed with it in France on 19 January 1915. It went into the line soon afterwards, but had returned to its parent division before the 28th was involved in any serious fighting”.

”The advance parties of the North Midland Division arrived in France on 23 February 1915, and by 8 March the bulk of the division had completed its concentration, becoming the first complete TF division to serve in an active theatre of war. 1/1st NM Field Company returned to the division on 6 April, and because the RE establishment had been increased to three field companies per division, the experienced 57th Field Company (from the Regular Army 3rd Division) was attached from 7 April to 10 July 1915, when 2/1st North Midland Field Company arrived from England. The division was officially designated 46th (North Midland) Division on 12 May 1915”.

NB.  It seems most likely that the curved shoulder title mentioned earlier in the thread and seen in the initial photo of our subject mounted, was that of the SIGNAL.SERVICE.

Post Script:  I wonder if the Howe family were connected in any way with the coal mines of Lt Col Harrison?  It’s quite notable that all four sons joined the RE.

Edited 14 August , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[BillyH]

I'm just a bit curious about the writing in the bottom right corner of the original B+W photo. Can't for the life of me make it out, could be the soldiers signature or perhaps the photographer?

Is there a bit missing on the right?

BillyH.

Edited 14 August , 2021 by BillyH

[FROGSMILE]

I think it’s a typical photographic studio mark, Billy.  They often appeared at bottom right or top left in white print (to stand out) on B&W photos.  Yes, I think a bit has been obscured from the print.

Edited 14 August , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[howe2010]

10 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

Definitely Corps of Royal Engineers.  All of them!  A much better photo.  @Michelle Young’s excellent eyes score again.

”The 1st North Midland Field Company was based at the Drill Hall in Broomfield Road, Smethwick, while the HQ of the Divisional Engineers and the newly raised 2nd North Midland Field Company was at Norton Hall in Norton Canes, near Cannock, the family home of Lt-Col W.E. Harrison, whose coal mining employees formed the bulk of the personnel. Harrison was appointed Commanding Royal Engineer (CRE) of the North Midland Division on 25 May 1912. The newly formed Divisional Telegraph (later Signal) Company, RE, was based at the Drill Hall at Routh Street in Stoke on Trent”.

”The order to mobilise was received on 4 August 1914. Shortly afterwards, the men were invited to volunteer for overseas service, and the majority having accepted this liability [Imperial Service tablet refers] , the North Midland Division concentrated at Luton. In November it moved to the area round Bishop's Stortford where it completed its war training”.

”Meanwhile, the men who had not volunteered for foreign service, together with the recruits who were coming forward, remained at the drill halls to form 2nd Line units designated the 2/1st and 2/2nd North Midland Field Companies, while the parent units took a '1/' prefix. Later the 1/3rd and 3/1st Field Companies were formed. The 2nd Line units joined the 2nd North Midland Division”.

”The first unit of the North Midland engineers to go overseas was the 1/1st NM Field Company, which was posted to the 28th Division, formed of Regular Army battalions brought back from India and other imperial postings. The company joined the division assembling at Winchester on 26 December 1914, and landed with it in France on 19 January 1915. It went into the line soon afterwards, but had returned to its parent division before the 28th was involved in any serious fighting”.

”The advance parties of the North Midland Division arrived in France on 23 February 1915, and by 8 March the bulk of the division had completed its concentration, becoming the first complete TF division to serve in an active theatre of war. 1/1st NM Field Company returned to the division on 6 April, and because the RE establishment had been increased to three field companies per division, the experienced 57th Field Company (from the Regular Army 3rd Division) was attached from 7 April to 10 July 1915, when 2/1st North Midland Field Company arrived from England. The division was officially designated 46th (North Midland) Division on 12 May 1915”.

NB.  It seems most likely that the curved shoulder title mentioned earlier in the thread and seen in the initial photo of our subject mounted, was that of the SIGNAL.SERVICE.

Post Script:  I wonder if the Howe family were connected in any way with the coal mines of Lt Col Harrison?  It’s quite notable that all four sons joined the RE.

Yes Charles Wm was a miner - thanks for the info

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, howe2010 said:

Yes Charles Wm was a miner - thanks for the info

That’s excellent.  It makes sense on several levels.  Engineering was at the core of mining of course, so the RE was an ideal unit, and the family were probably linked to the Colonel’s mining company too.

Edited 14 August , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[RussT]

On the basis of the identification of his likely unit, I would suggest that this his is medal roll - thus providing the following RE (TF) service numbers: 2360 & 492297

His original number upon enlistment would have been 2360 and his second 6-digit number of 492297 would have been allotted in early 1917 when the TF were re-numbered. His number of 492297 falls within the range of numbers (492001 to 494000) allotted to the North Midland Divisional Signal Company RE TF.

It should be possible from those service numbers to estimate an enlistment date for him.

What were his brother's names? Perhaps we can also try similarly to identify them.

Regards

Russ

(Image courtesy of Ancestry)

 

[RussT]

A prediction that two of his brothers were:

Arthur Howe: 2320 & 486991

Harry Howe: 2164 & 492247

Regards

Russ

[FROGSMILE]

Great work Russ, this all seems to be coming together quite nicely.

Edited 14 August , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[howe2010]

On 14/08/2021 at 22:41, RussT said:

A prediction that two of his brothers were:

Arthur Howe: 2320 & 486991

Harry Howe: 2164 & 492247

Regards

Russ

Brothers were indeed Arthur (b.1893), Harry (b.1895) and Cecil (b.1889). All lived in Stoke. 

Does anyone recognise the place where the photo is taken? It looks like the writing might say Picardi??

[Michelle Young]

The equestrian photo looks like it was taken in England to me, the house architecture doesn't looks French or Belgian. 

[FROGSMILE]

It's interesting that our subject was the only one of the four brothers to volunteer for Imperial Service (overseas deployment) and he wears the tablet with some degree of palpable pride.  It suggests that he enjoyed his auxiliary military training and was quite ambitious.  I agree with Michelle that the photo showing him mounted was more likely taken in Britain.

Edited 16 August , 2021 by FROGSMILE