Mysterious death of Pte. 17859 of the 9th Cameronians 21st/22nd April 1918

[Medaler]

I did warn that I would be back asking more questions.

I am currently researching this Chesterfield soldier for which CWGC accord a date of death of 21st April 1918 and record as having found his final resting place as Haringhe (Bandaghem) Military Cemetery. Other sources, however, which include Soldiers' Effects, the Medal Roll for his 14-15 Star, and his entry in SDGW all show that he lost his struggle for life on the following day.

The main problem with all of these sources, however, is that according to their War Diary, the 9th Cameronians did not actually go into the trenches on the Ypres sector until the 24th April. Prior to that they had either been in transit, at Verchocq, or somewhere near Corbie.

My theory, therefore, is that he was not actually injured until, at the earliest, the early hours of the 25th April, when their diary provides evidence that the unit came under an intense artillery bombardment. 

I have been unable to locate any official notification that might have been posted in the press concerning either when he received his injury or the date of his death, but a notice concerning the latter did appear in the local press on 11th May.

Would anyone like to comment on my theory that the dates given for his death in the sources that I have mentioned are wrong? Can anyone add anything?

Warmest regards,

Mike

[Medaler]

Ooops! After all that I omitted his name. He was William Henry Thomas.

[Skipman]

Pension card says died of wounds 22nd, could have been wounded at any time before that. I researched a soldier wounded 5/9/1916 DOW 20/9/1916

 

https://www.fold3.com/image/669727766?xid=1022&_ga=2.59592490.666165238.1627913033-668649547.1626962470

 

Mike

Edited 2 August , 2021 by Skipman

[Medaler]

6 minutes ago, Skipman said:

Pension card says died of wounds 22nd, could have been wounded at any time before that. I researched a soldier wounded 5/9/1916 DOW 20/9/1916

 

https://www.fold3.com/image/669727766?xid=1022&_ga=2.59592490.666165238.1627913033-668649547.1626962470

 

Mike

I would agree, that could be the case, but in order to have been wounded before 25th April he would have to have sustained those injuries miles away from Haringhe and before 6th April. In which case, surely he would either have been evacuated further back down the CCS or been hospitalised on the Somme?

[Skipman]

32 minutes ago, Medaler said:

I would agree, that could be the case, but in order to have been wounded before 25th April he would have to have sustained those injuries miles away from Haringhe and before 6th April. In which case, surely he would either have been evacuated further back down the CCS or been hospitalised on the Somme?

 

I see what you mean. the South African Brigade diary doesn't help much either.

 

Mike

[TEW]

The Medical Arrangements are quite complex for this period for that unit. They were with 14th Division until 21/4/1918 then 9th Division. So you could have a different evacuation process either side of 21/4/18.

I only have 9th ADMS diary but they mention Bandaghem being used from 5/4/18.

62 CCS at Bandaghem was admitting wounded up to 26/4/18 when they packed up and moved. Looks like Remy Siding should have been the preferred CCS group with two 9th Division FA HQs & the MDS there 22/4/18, the CCSs having moved. 9th Division field ambulances were moving dressing stations etc. back to CCS sites. Date is a bit late but 28 FA pulled back to Bandaghem 27/4/18.

TEW

[Medaler]

Thanks gentlemen.

His last opportunity to be wounded on the Somme would have been 4th April, when their diary records casualties of 3 officers and 101 other ranks. They did not, however, get off the train at Hopoutre (located between Lijssenthoek and Poperinge) until 7pm on the 21st. Between those dates they had been miles away from the Ypres sector, either on route to or at Verchocq (about 20 miles east of Etaples).

According to my thoughts - which could be wildly fanciful - I can't see him being so ill to have died on the 22nd that he would not have gone to one of the base hospitals before they left Verchocq on the 20th. 

I did wonder if he could have been slightly wounded on 4th April, but had remained on duty, and that his condition had then deteriorated over time. That however, given the timings of their movements, and a date of death on most of the records for the 22nd, seems highly unlikely. On balance, it seems to me that he is much more likely to have been injured on the 25th, which was the first date that his unit sustained casualties in the Ypres sector. I can then see it being likely that he died at Haringhe either later that day or on the 26th.

Regards,

Mike

 

[Tom Lang]

15 minutes ago, Medaler said:

Thanks gentlemen.

His last opportunity to be wounded on the Somme would have been 4th April, when their diary records casualties of 3 officers and 101 other ranks. They did not, however, get off the train at Hopoutre (located between Lijssenthoek and Poperinge) until 7pm on the 21st. Between those dates they had been miles away from the Ypres sector, either on route to or at Verchocq (about 20 miles east of Etaples).

According to my thoughts - which could be wildly fanciful - I can't see him being so ill to have died on the 22nd that he would not have gone to one of the base hospitals before they left Verchocq on the 20th. 

I did wonder if he could have been slightly wounded on 4th April, but had remained on duty, and that his condition had then deteriorated over time. That however, given the timings of their movements, and a date of death on most of the records for the 22nd, seems highly unlikely. On balance, it seems to me that he is much more likely to have been injured on the 25th, which was the first date that his unit sustained casualties in the Ypres sector. I can then see it being likely that he died at Haringhe either later that day or on the 26th.

Regards,

Mike

 

Hello Mike,

Have you considered that he was wounded in March?

The WD for March shows 4 Officers and 131 ORs wounded during 21/23 March, 1918.

I'm attaching snippets of my transcription of the WD for that period of March, 1918.

Kindest Regards,

Tom.

[TEW]

Unless he was wounded 21st/22nd by some accident I would veer towards a later date. SA brigade shows the arrival of 9/SR in the line late on 24th.

Could be that things were chaotic and recording of admissions & discharges (including by death) was not meticulous.

Tom, it's rather a long haul from Jussy in March to Bandaghem a month later. If wounded in March he would have been medically admitted closer to Jussy.

TEW

[Medaler]

Hello Tom,

Thanks for your input, but those locations seem to be east of Corbie, and are around 100 miles south of where he was buried. 

 

I have, however, just found a CWGC record for 7620, Pte. P. Reilly of the 9th Cameronians who died on 19th April 1918 who is also buried at Haringhe. Their records also state that he had been transferred to 212th Div Employment Coy of the Labour Corps and renumbered as 512934. I am now wondering if William had gone the same way.

[Medaler]

12 minutes ago, Medaler said:

Hello Tom,

Thanks for your input, but those locations seem to be east of Corbie, and are around 100 miles south of where he was buried. 

 

I have, however, just found a CWGC record for 7620, Pte. P. Reilly of the 9th Cameronians who died on 19th April 1918 who is also buried at Haringhe. Their records also state that he had been transferred to 212th Div Employment Coy of the Labour Corps and renumbered as 512934. I am now wondering if William had gone the same way.

Reilly seems to be a red herring. SDGW, CWGC and the medal rolls all connect him to the Labour Corps, none of these records refer to William Thomas in the same way. So far as they are concerned he was 100% Cameronian. 

[TEW]

I agree that with no record that places Thomas with Labour Corps it's an unlikely scenario.

Any idea where other 9/SR burials are located and dated? Any others 21st/22nd?

TEW

[Medaler]

9 minutes ago, TEW said:

I agree that with no record that places Thomas with Labour Corps it's an unlikely scenario.

Any idea where other 9/SR burials are located and dated? Any others 21st/22nd?

TEW

I have just gone down a very similar road to that, and looked at dates of death and the burial plots at Haringhe. I found them very difficult to fathom, as they seem to have had various plots open at the same time. The conclusion I have drawn, however, is not the one that I expected. It does indeed seem that his grave was dug for someone who died on the 22nd rather than on either the 25th or 26th. 

Tracking other 9th Cameronian casualties who lost their lives at the same kind of time, Reilly and Thomas stand out like saw thumbs. After 22nd April, according to CWGC and SDGW, there were no further deaths amongst their comrades until the 25th.

I do love a mystery, but this one has me beaten. 

[Skipman]

Using Geoff's engine, this seems to be all 9th Battalion men buried in Haringhe (Bandaghem) Military Cemetery

 

002     CLELLAND J    42395    9TH BN     26/04/1918    CAMERONIANS (SCOTTISH RIFLES)    V. A. 12.
003     EADES    FH    43710    9TH BN     30/09/1918    CAMERONIANS (SCOTTISH RIFLES)    III. B. 10.
004     FLEMING    G    43513    9TH BN     01/10/1918    CAMERONIANS (SCOTTISH RIFLES)    III. C. 62.
005     KENNEDY    J    8847    9TH BN     30/09/1918    CAMERONIANS (SCOTTISH RIFLES)    III. C. 45.
006     LIGHTFOOT G    18418    9TH BN     01/10/1918    CAMERONIANS (SCOTTISH RIFLES)    III. B. 20.
007     MCALLISTER J    36998    9TH BN     01/10/1918    CAMERONIANS (SCOTTISH RIFLES)    III. C. 64.
008     MCLEOD    J    42385    9TH BN     28/09/1918    CAMERONIANS (SCOTTISH RIFLES)    III. C. 22.
010     REILLY    P    7620    9TH BN     19/04/1918    CAMERONIANS (SCOTTISH RIFLES)    V. D. 43.
011     THOMAS    WH    17859    9TH BN     21/04/1918    CAMERONIANS (SCOTTISH RIFLES)    III. E. 24.
012     WATERS    S    38788    9TH BN     06/10/1918    CAMERONIANS (SCOTTISH RIFLES)    III. A. 28.

 

Mike

[johntanner]

What about the possibility of an attachment to a TMB?

[ss002d6252]

22 minutes ago, johntanner said:

What about the possibility of an attachment to a TMB?

Whenever I've seen odd deaths it's almost invariably been because they've been on some sort of attachment or working party. Diaries rarely report them so it's easy for them to be missed,

Craig

[Medaler]

Good point gents, about the possibility of him being on attachment. All I can say is that I have no evidence for it in anything I have seen for my bloke.

He was an early volunteer from his service number, signed on somewhere between 15th-19th February 1915. Not a "founder member" of 9th Bn, but did all his overseas service with them as a fairly early reinforcement. I have not found many Cameronians from Chesterfield, but they do make a change from my usual Foresters. 

This is him. Not a great photo, but better than none.

[TEW]

9th Cameronians had been brigaded with 28, 27, 43 brigades up to 21/4/18. Then 26 brigade for 2-3 days before joining SA brigade. Those should be the first choice for an attachment to a TMB. 43 has no diary, 26 and SA would be too late.

Not checked 27 & 28 TMBs but they would have to be in that area by 22/4/18.

Overall it does look like he DOW shortly after getting off the train and 2-3 days before going into the line.

Either he's not with 9th Cameronians at the time or the date is wrong.

TEW

[Medaler]

39 minutes ago, TEW said:

9th Cameronians had been brigaded with 28, 27, 43 brigades up to 21/4/18. Then 26 brigade for 2-3 days before joining SA brigade. Those should be the first choice for an attachment to a TMB. 43 has no diary, 26 and SA would be too late.

Not checked 27 & 28 TMBs but they would have to be in that area by 22/4/18.

Overall it does look like he DOW shortly after getting off the train and 2-3 days before going into the line.

Either he's not with 9th Cameronians at the time or the date is wrong.

TEW

Thanks for that. I will see what I can find tomorrow.

regards,

Mike

[Medaler]

Sorry, I have only been able to return to this now. I have to report that the trench mortar batteries have been inconclusive. 

[Smithy26]

Mike,

sorry i missed this thread earlier.  I am doing research into casualties of the Cameronians in WW1 and hit exactly the same problem as you with this man.  My notes state "WIA Ypres Sector & DOW Casualty Clearing Station, Haringhe.  (Possibly attached another Unit as 9th Bttn behind the lines and elsewhere at this date)".

Only thing i could think of was that he was on a Working Party nearer the Front and was injured and ended up at Haringhe as there is no evidence of transfer to another unit.

Other info i have on him : Born New Tupton, Derbyshire 1885.  A Coal Miner.  Enlisted Chesterfield 1915. Husband of Ellen Thomas (m.1910, 3x children). Son of James & Ruth Thomas."

Sorry i cant be of any more help, looks like we have both looked in same places with no luck.  Thanks for posting the photo of him by the way.

Cheers,

Smithy