Which WW1 army records stipulate D.O.B's? I have 5 people with the same name in different units and no D.O.B's and so cannot match an ancestor!

[Provost]

On 02/08/2021 at 21:39, D Pritchard said:

@Provost I have had a brief look into what the duties of the MMP were. Do you know of any other literature that might go into more detail about the MMP in WW1? I will have a read around the Royal Garrison Artillery.

The most recent Corps history (which covers the First World War in a couple of chapters) is The Redcaps by Gary Sheffield. You can get it from the RMP Shop :- shop@RHQRMP@onmicrosoft.com - far cheaper than Amazon.

 

On another note, a colleague pointed out that they are wearing black mourning buttons (2nd button down), so they may have lost a family member.

Cheers,

Richard

[D Pritchard]

OK, So in a family photo of 4 sons in uniform (which I posted on another thread about Arthur Wakley), with help on the forum, 2 of the 4 sons have been identified - where they served using records and one picture because he was the youngest and another from someone ID'ing the military policeman's uniform with a whistle. 

This leaves me with 2 photos below and I don't know which is which! One of these is Harry who was definitely in the Coldstream Guards and the other is Arthur who we are still trying to establish what he did. Is it possible using these pictures to pick out the Coldstream Guard one by any uniform detail do you think from the remaining two? Is the man with the moustache possibly him because of the leather ammunition thing going over his body (I'm sorry I don't know what the correct term is?).  There is another photo I have added - one of two CG's in ceremonial drummer uniform( I think) and two men in suits. I can't quite match them? Any thoughts please anybody, thank you.

 

The original family picture below

 

 

[clk]

Hi Deborah,

As an observation, in the family photo two of the soldiers appear to be wearing mourning buttons - the third might also be too, but obscured by the bandolier? There doesn't appear to be a matriarch in the photo, so might it date to a short time after the death of their mother?

Regards
Chris

Edited 4 August , 2021 by clk

[D Pritchard]

@clk yes you are correct, this is a picture taken with the family in mourning after the death of their mother. I wondered if the bandolier might signify perhaps this person was Coldstream Guards, as none of the others are wearing it, although it is was probably part of standard soldier uniform? Just clutching at straws!!!

 

[D Pritchard]

@Provost thank you for that. Yes, you are correct the family were in mourning as their mother had passed away.

[clk]

Hi,

My understanding is that infantry soldiers didn't usually wear bandoliers, and that they were more commonly worn by mounted troops and Royal Engineers, so at the moment I'm kind of leaning towards him being 210707 Arthur Wakley, Royal Field Artillery. Did your Arthur marry a Ada Florence Beal, and have children called Hilda Florence, and Cyril Arthur?

Regards
Chris

[D Pritchard]

@clk Hmm interesting. I may have to accept that I may never totally know for sure who is who then! On Ancestry, the man wearing the bandolier was described as Tom, who I assumed was in the military police, but it was pointed out on the forum that the MMP person might be the one in the back middle of the photo because of the whistle in his left pocket I think. I am afraid I have not got any further with Arthur in terms of his children, but it is my understanding he married a Hilda S Blackmore in 1921 in Taunton as it is listed in the marriage indexes and Taunton is where he died in 1951. What a pity all this sort of information was not shared a generation ago!

[tullybrone]

The 2 men in the “fancy” uniform are from the Coldstream Guards - buttons in “2” - either Regimental bandsmen or more likely Battalion drummer/bugler. They re both L/Cpl as Guards L/Cpl wore 2 stripes.

 

Steve

Edited 4 August , 2021 by tullybrone

[tullybrone]

I’ve had a look at CG records on FMP for Harry Wakley 7505 (renumbered 2646151 in 1920 while he was on Class Z Reserve). He only served BEF 12/8/1914 until 1/9/1914. He likely wasn’t able to hold a rifle after his injury and the 1920 medical report attached by the OP mentions he was employed on “Police Duties” in London. As there is no mention of a transfer (and renumbering) to Military Foot Police he was likely employed in Regimental Police duties.

He married in Notting Hill in 1916 was discharged as A/LCpl in July 1920 to an address in Highgate, North London.

There is another Harry Wakley 8490 who joined in 1909 and was awarded the MM in 1919.

PM sent.

Steve

Edited 4 August , 2021 by tullybrone

[Mark1959]

Catterick Camp was a well known training camp for the British army. 
you get some medical records from the first WW1. There is that admission record for WR/264661. This suggests he is not your relative as he would be 24 at that time. But the records are not wholly reliable. That man’s name is shown as Wakeley. So on both counts that man is unlikely
The point is of the 5 men outlined by Peter M/324519 seems the most likely to be the Arthur Wakley you are after. 

[D Pritchard]

@tullybrone thank you so much for helping to research this and finding the documents. A fantastic piece of family history!

[D Pritchard]

@Mark1959 thanks for this information. The surname is often misspelt, there are many variations of it. I need to print all this information off, re-read it and digest it! Thanks for your time.

[clk]

Hi Deborah,

On 02/08/2021 at 22:26, Matlock1418 said:

the PIC is also annotated with the following address: 67 St Johns Rd, Highgate

That's the same as the discharge address shown in his Coldstream Guards record that Steve mentioned above. 

6 hours ago, D Pritchard said:

my understanding he married a Hilda S Blackmore in 1921 in Taunton

I guess that he might have remarried, but I don't think so. In the Coldstream Guards record for 7505 Harry Wakley it says that he married a Mable Emily Longhurst on 17.6.1916.

Their marriage certificate would appear to be:

Image sourced from Ancestry

In the (1917 ?) family photo, one of the men appears to have the rank stripes of a sergeant, and another the single stripe of a Lance Corporal.

What we know about Harry...

Medal Index Card/Medal Rolls - Private and subsequently Acting Corporal, so substantive rank of Lance Corporal?
Marriage certificate (17.6.1916) - Sergeant
Coldstream Guards record - Acting Lance Corporal (on discharge 24.7.1920)
Pension records - Lance Corporal

In the 1939 Register there is a Harry and Mabel E Wakley living at Northbrook Lodge, Topsham Road, St Thomas, Devon - Ancestry link


Image sourced from Ancestry

Regards
Chris

 

 

[tullybrone]

9 hours ago, D Pritchard said:

OK, So in a family photo of 4 sons in uniform (which I posted on another thread about Arthur Wakley), with help on the forum, 2 of the 4 sons have been identified - where they served using records and one picture because he was the youngest and another from someone ID'ing the military policeman's uniform with a whistle. 

This leaves me with 2 photos below and I don't know which is which! One of these is Harry who was definitely in the Coldstream Guards and the other is Arthur who we are still trying to establish what he did. Is it possible using these pictures to pick out the Coldstream Guard one by any uniform detail do you think from the remaining two? Is the man with the moustache possibly him because of the leather ammunition thing going over his body (I'm sorry I don't know what the correct term is?).  There is another photo I have added - one of two CG's in ceremonial drummer uniform( I think) and two men in suits. I can't quite match them? Any thoughts please anybody, thank you.

 

The original family picture below

 

 

Hi,

If you are confident that Harry Wakley is one of the 3 soldiers in the family group then he could very well be the man wearing 3 stripes on his tunic.

Whilst his full service papers don’t appear to be available online (application to MOD required) we can “rely” on his marriage certificate entry describing him as a “Sergeant” and know from his MIC that he was a Guards “Corporal” at one stage. Foot Guards Cpl would wear 3 Stripes (as would a full Sgt albeit a different colour) and was known in the Regiment as a Lance Sergeant although it is reasonable to infer that perhaps a registrar/clergyman would not be fully aware of Brigade of Guards customs.
 

Steve

Edited 4 August , 2021 by tullybrone

[D Pritchard]

@clk The reference to Hilda S Blackmore was attached to Arthur. I don't know who married Harry, but I think that you are probably correct with Mabel. I note that the father in the marriage cert. is Thomas Wakley (his full name was Samuel Thomas Wakley, but perhaps he called himself Thomas instead. His brother was a Joshua John, but was known as John. Geographically it appears things link up. Topsham Road is in Exeter and although far enough away from Rockbeare, is not a million miles from the place.

Thank you very much.

[D Pritchard]

@tullybrone Thank you for this piece of information. So, Back row: Left to Right (possibly....)

Arthur (possibly RFA, or someone on the other thread suggested RASC - I need to go back and re-read everyone's contributions. Still not sure what Arthur actually did in the war), Harry (Coldstream Guards - 3 stripes on tunic - and if he was injured and subsequently went into the police - could that explain whistle hanging from top tunic that should be attached to left pocket that someone pointed out on another thread as this photo taken 1917 ??), Tom who was in Mounted military police (bandolier could signify MMP?)

Centre: Ralph (navy)

 

 

I think on the other thread this is what I started off with, so have gone full circle.  But I have loads more information now about 3 of the brothers now which I didn't have before, thanks to everyone who contributed.

[tullybrone]

8 minutes ago, D Pritchard said:

@tullybrone Thank you for this piece of information. So, Back row: Left to Right (possibly....)

Arthur (possibly RFA, or someone on the other thread suggested RASC - I need to go back and re-read everyone's contributions. Still not sure what Arthur actually did in the war), Harry (Coldstream Guards - 3 stripes on tunic - and if he was injured and subsequently went into the police - could that explain whistle hanging from top tunic that should be attached to left pocket that someone pointed out on another thread as this photo taken 1917 ??), Tom who was in Mounted military police (bandolier could signify MMP?)

Centre: Ralph (navy)

 

 

I think on the other thread this is what I started off with, so have gone full circle.  But I have loads more information now about 3 of the brothers now which I didn't have before, thanks to everyone who contributed.

Hi,

 

Im sure he’s not Military Police as his CG papers that I sent you would’ve shown a transfer and his BWM & Victory Medal issue would’ve been made by Military Police record office rather than CG.

If he had transferred out and then returned to CG the existing papers would have shown that “double” movement.

I have no detailed knowledge re the significance of the whistle so you may have to contact the member on your other thread - all I can say is that the surviving documents don’t support service in a Military Police unit.

His marriage certificate gives a non Military barracks address in central London that may or may not be relevant.

Steve

[clk]

Hi Deborah,

I don't know about anyone else, but I'm finding it a bit difficult cross referencing your two topics which seem to be essentially about the same thing. Might it be worth asking the mods to merge them? If you would like to do that, probably the easiest way to go about it would be to click on the 3 dots top right hand corner of this post, select 'report', write your message and make your request. I'm sure that they will be happy to oblige.

Regards
Chris

 

[D Pritchard]

@tullybrone I thought you said that Harry CG who is in the middle with 3 stripes, when injured, was put on police duties, because it was in the medical report of 1920, so I was just trying to make sense of the whistle thing, but I will just put it aside! 

Separate to this I thought there was a Tom William Gould Wakley in the family who was in the MMP. TBH, I can't remember all the details as there are about 4-5 pages of this spread over two forum queries. I need to re-read this and make sense of it, but will have to come back to it some other time now due to other work. But thanks for all your input. Much appreciated.

 

[D Pritchard]

@clk I didn't know you could do this, but I think it's a great idea. I think the problem is I had two different queries and they got merged because other members of the family were discussed and it feels a bit confused. Unfortunately, I have run out of time at the moment to make sense of it all. So I will have to re-visit it all at some other point. Thank you for what you have researched.

[Michelle Young]

I've merged the two threads as suggested.

Michelle 

[D Pritchard]

@Michelle Young thank you.

[tullybrone]

21 hours ago, clk said:

Hi Deborah,

That's the same as the discharge address shown in his Coldstream Guards record that Steve mentioned above. 

I guess that he might have remarried, but I don't think so. In the Coldstream Guards record for 7505 Harry Wakley it says that he married a Mable Emily Longhurst on 17.6.1916.

Their marriage certificate would appear to be:

Image sourced from Ancestry

In the (1917 ?) family photo, one of the men appears to have the rank stripes of a sergeant, and another the single stripe of a Lance Corporal.

What we know about Harry...

Medal Index Card/Medal Rolls - Private and subsequently Acting Corporal, so substantive rank of Lance Corporal?
Marriage certificate (17.6.1916) - Sergeant
Coldstream Guards record - Acting Lance Corporal (on discharge 24.7.1920)
Pension records - Lance Corporal

In the 1939 Register there is a Harry and Mabel E Wakley living at Northbrook Lodge, Topsham Road, St Thomas, Devon - Ancestry link


Image sourced from Ancestry

Regards
Chris

 

 

I wonder if the 1916 Grosvenor Square address on the marriage certificate is in relation to the YMCA Hut at that location?

https://blog.maryevans.com/eagle-hut/

I expect a concentration of soldiers at YMCA premises would lead to some friction (as outlined in the above blog) so some permanent Police presence at or close to the location might have been advisable.

Steve

Edited 5 August , 2021 by tullybrone

[D Pritchard]

@tullybrone thanks for that bit of info.

[D Pritchard]

So I’ve re-read the threads and this is my interpretation of the 1917 photo

1) Harry = Mabel E,

Coldstream Guards - Sergeant so 3 stripes, so the man in the middle on the back row.

2) Arthur=Hilda S Blackmore

Likely - Royal Army Service Corps H/324519 due to records having links with Hilda (Arthur’s wife ) and Tom (his brother, retired policeman) being mentioned in 1951 probate. Plus links to Taunton.

3) Tom William Gould Wakley=MMP  as per post by Provost:

‘Tom William Gould Wakely first served with the 3rd Devon Volunteers. He was a Police Constable in the Devon Constabulary, when he enlisted into the Army on 10th December 1915. Like a great many civilian policemen, he went straight into the MMP with the Army No P10857 (at a time when most men were transferred into the Corps from other units). On 4th August 1917 he was transferred to the Royal Garrison Artillery (no RGA number given in the Corps Order Book). He arrived in France on 26th October that year.

On 4th October 1918, he voluntarily transferred from the Royal Garrison Artillery No 185440 into the MMP and was given a new No P16377. This is unusual, but not unknown. It is probable that he was discharged from the RGA, and then re-enlisted a very short time later. Normally they would have simply used their previous CMP number.

He only served with them for a year, and on 18th October 1919, he was posted to Class Z Reserve. He later re-joined the Devon Constabulary.’

4) As to who is who pictorially, I have 2 comments on this:

- I note that man on left has one stripe. Assuming Arthur was in the RASC H/324519 could this have been his rank in the RASC?

- I note that Tom William Gould Wakley is the eldest - born in 1887. Arthur is born in 1894. There is an age gap of 7 years. Looking at the two remaining men, I would say the one on back row on the right is Tom and the younger looking one on the left is Arthur?? 

[5) Ralph sitting by himself in the middle of the picture is the youngest and so in the navy].