Which WW1 army records stipulate D.O.B's? I have 5 people with the same name in different units and no D.O.B's and so cannot match an ancestor!

[D Pritchard]

@PRC

I hope this makes a little more sense.

This is the family, I am not directly descended but am related as the head Samuel Thomas would have been my Gt Gt Uncle. The family resided at Rockbeare, though the children seem to have been born in slightly different places which adds to the confusion.

1. Ralph is second row from front on his own - have now established he was in navy for about 6 weeks before contracting and dying of meningitis at 18. He was on the 1911 census aged 16. Born Whimple, Devon.

2. This is Tom William Gould Wakley - Lance Corporal Mounted military police. Born Southleigh, Devon.

3. This is Harry - I think is Coldstream Guards, but I am always open to the possibility that I am wrong! I don’t mind as long as I get the right facts. Born Chetnole, Dorset. Not sure if 1888 or 1889. 

 

I thought the man on the back right was also him below, but I may be wrong. I think the uniform is Coldstream Guards ceremonial uniform. I found something on the internet that said it was for drummers of the CG.

 

 

4. This is Arthur and the one that started my query. Arthur was born in Talaton, Devon. I came across 4 people called Arthur Wakley: in the Royal Army Service Corps, Royal Field Artillery - Gunner, Royal Welsh Fusiliers, Labour Corps and Royal Engineers. I basically wondered if anyone might be able to identify which of these he was actually in, as there was no DOB on any of the military records for any of the Arthur’s on Ancestry and I wondered if there were other records I could access that may enable me to make a link.

Arthur is 16 in 1911 and is the butcher’s assistant.

\

I hope this makes sense!

Edited 2 August , 2021 by D Pritchard
to add a numbered point

[D Pritchard]

@Matlock1418 thanks for finding this info, think I can definitely get rid of the Welsh fusilier because my AW has no middle name. Difficult to say with regard to the Royal Field Artillery record, who is not to say this AW didn't live in the SE at some point in his life? But if I go on the fact that he died in Taunton and focus solely on the SW, then perhaps I can discount this too... Must be a nightmare finding WW1 records for someone with the name SMITH!

[rolt968]

4 hours ago, Matlock1418 said:

 

Be aware:

= For a man it was usually just the YoB [which might be taken off other records which were self-declared] on Pension Ledger Index Cards - for a Disability claim

= Full DoB are typically found on a Widow's claims Pension Index Card - but for the widow [next to her name] and child(ren) [listed in a table] NOT for the man [as were potentially needed for a widow's age supplement, at age 35 or 45, and for the termination of child(ren)'s allowance(s), at 16] - I suppose those might help, if you have other good genealogy.

:-) M

All true, but I have found the very, very occasional card with the man's DoB. The one which springs to mind, I had rejected as not being the man I was looking for as he had lied about his age. It was a late application from his grandfather. I have no idea why the (fictional) DoB was on the card.

RM

[Provost]

Good evening,

Looking at the photo, the chap in the centre is almost certainly T W G Wakley. The clincher is his police whistle clearly seen hanging from his top tunic button - it was then fixed to the button of his left breast pocket. 

Here is a little more info on him.

Tom William Gould Wakely first served with the 3^rd Devon Volunteers. He was a Police Constable in the Devon Constabulary, when he enlisted into the Army on 10th December 1915. Like a great many civilian policemen, he went straight into the MMP with the Army No P10857 (at a time when most men were transferred into the Corps from other units). On 4^th August 1917 he was transferred to the Royal Garrison Artillery (no RGA number given in the Corps Order Book). He arrived in France on 26^th October that year.

On 4^th October 1918, he voluntarily transferred from the Royal Garrison Artillery No 185440 into the MMP and was given a new No P16377. This is unusual, but not unknown. It is probable that he was discharged from the RGA, and then re-enlisted a very short time later. Normally they would have simply used their previous CMP number.

He only served with them for a year, and on 18^th October 1919, he was posted to Class Z Reserve. He later re-joined the Devon Constabulary.

I hope this is useful,

Cheers,

Richard

 

[D Pritchard]

@Provost thanks for this, it is very useful. With help, two of the four brothers have now been solved. It's blown my theory of the Coldstream Guard then! Perhaps someone has mixed up the names when they have labelled them. But I don't understand why the picture with the Coldstream Guards was posted under these brothers.

[D Pritchard]

@Provost I have had a brief look into what the duties of the MMP were. Do you know of any other literature that might go into more detail about the MMP in WW1? I will have a read around the Royal Garrison Artillery.

[clk]

Hi Deborah,

23 hours ago, D Pritchard said:

 

That cross references to this pension claim index card on Fold3...

Image sourced from Fold3

Rather than just "Aug 1914" from the image that you posted, Findmypast have a record which appears to give a more specific date...

Image sourced from Findmypast

In the 1911 Census (Ancestry link) there is a 22 year old Harry Wakley (born in Exeter) serving with the 3rd Bn Coldstream Guards at the Tower of London Barracks.

For August 1914, the 3rd Bn war diary is available as a free download from here.

Regards
Chris

 

[Matlock1418]

30 minutes ago, clk said:

In addition to this Pension Ledger Index Card, above, there is another Pension Index Card at WFA/Fold3 with the same 8/MW/5991 disability claim reference.

The " 8 " refers to Region 8 [SW England] which would be appropriate for Exeter but the PIC is also annotated with the following address: 67 St Johns Rd, Highgate

:-) M

P.S. I note you have another Wakley thread running and I believe the identity of the soldier whose photo isshown above has likely been revised - for those who follow here it might be useful to clarify matters.

Edited 2 August , 2021 by Matlock1418

[PRC]

6 hours ago, D Pritchard said:

Arthur Wakley (b. 1894) I believe was in the Coldstream Guards, I have a picture of him with two in the ceremonial uniform (drummers).

 

3 hours ago, D Pritchard said:

3. This is Harry - I think is Coldstream Guards, but I am always open to the possibility that I am wrong! I don’t mind as long as I get the right facts. Born Chetnole, Dorset. Not sure if 1888 or 1889.

I hope this makes sense!

So you said Arthur but meant Harry - who you hadn't previously mentioned. No wonder I got confused

So if I've read you correctly the five contenders for Arthur are :-
1) Corporal M/324519 Arthur Wakley, Army Service Corps. Victory Medal and British War Medal only, so didn't enter a Theatre of War until on or after the 1st January 1916.
2) Gunner 210707 Arthur Wakley, Royal Field Artillery. Victory Medal and British War Medal only, so didn't enter a Theatre of War until on or after the 1st January 1916.
3) Private 49298 Arthur Wakely, Royal Welsh Fusiliers, then Corporal (Acting Serjeant) SS/030681 Army Service Corps - but units could be the other way round as it looks like the medals were issued by the Royal Welsh Fusiliers, at least as far as the roll numbers cited on the MiC are concerned. Landed in France 26th July 1915. Pension Card has him as Arthur Elias Wakely.
4) Private 392748 Arthur Wakely, Labour Corps. Silver War Badge Card. Enlisted 30th December 1914. Discharged no longer physically fit for war service. He was (most likely) Eastern Command, Labour Corps, ex Manchester Regiment.
5) Sapper 238565 Arthur Wakely, Royal Engineers subsequently renumbered WR/264661. Victory Medal and British War Medal only, so didn't enter a Theatre of War until on or after the 1st January 1916.

There may them be other Arthur Wakley's who were home service only, who were not honourably discharged before the end of the war and for whom there are no surviving service records. And it can't be ruled out that he was a Royal Flying Corps man who transferred into the new Royal Air Force in April 1918 - these do not routinely have Medal Index cards.

I think 210707 Arthur Wakley can be ruled out as he has surviving service records on FMP - although for some odd reason they only came up on a search on just his service number only. That soldier can be ruled out - he was aged 29 years and 4 months when he attested on the 11th December 1915 at Camberwell under the Derby Scheme. He was a married Cartridge Filler, married in 1913 and by then he had 2 children. His address on discharge was 43 Bedford Road, Clapham, London SW4.

392748 Arthur Wakely also has surviving service records which also tend to rule him out. His next of kin was his brother Henry Wakley. He was 38 years old when he enlisted at Cardiff on the 30th December 1914. In November 1918, after his discharge, the Army were writing to him at 9 Glyndum Street, Merthyr Vale, Glamorgan.

With 2, 3 and 4 ruled out, and parking the issues of home service only and RFC\RAF, looks like 1 would be a much stronger candidate than 5.

Cheers,
Peter

[clk]

Hi Peter,

According to this topic, there also appears to be a 7505 Harry Wakley, Coldstream Guards that she's thrown into the mix.

Regards
Chris

Edited 2 August , 2021 by clk

[D Pritchard]

@clk this is excellent! Thank you very much indeed - it even tells me his battalion, this is really helpful. Bordercollie suggested he may be in either 2 or 3. I will have a read of the war diary later.

[D Pritchard]

@PRC 

I do apologise. I had another thread about Harry and which battalion of the Coldstream Guards he was in! Which has been established. So 3 of the 4 brothers have now been sorted:

 

Ralph - Navy, Tom - Military police, Harry - Coldstream Guards.

 

To add to the confusion, I think possibly the photos of the who’s who were mixed on Ancestry due to Provost identifying the mounted police uniform by a whistle. Then I was having additional conversations about Ralph!

 

Anyway, it is most definitely Arthur who I wish to find out regarding what he did in the military because there were several people with the same name as I raised at the beginning of this thread. It seems Peter that you have done an excellent job establishing who to rule out, thank you and thank you everybody on here for all your hard work. I do appreciate it. I will have to read this in more depth later.

 

[D Pritchard]

@Matlock1418 Yes. The other Wakley thread was about initially about Arthur, but then the other brothers got talked about and to add to the confusion I believe there was an error on ancestry re: photos against names, because someone on the other thread identified the brother who was in the military police, who I thought was Harry above of the Coldstream Guards! These will need to be amended on Ancestry. But we have now established 3 of the 4 brothers military records for definite by family and/or location - Rockbeare etc.

Ralph is definitely the youngest one in the photograph on the other thread.

Although there was a Harry in the Coldstream Guards in the family, the picture above attributed as being Harry is not, it is Tom who was in the military police because of the whistle on his uniform!

So I have two others in the photos - one of whom we know was in the Coldstream Guards (Harry) and the other - Arthur - we are still trying to work out what he did. However, not 100% certain yet which is which re: photos bearing in mind the mix up.

[kenmorrison]

Not sure if this helps but Sergeant 7500 Granville Ernest Smith of the 2nd Coldstream Guards was killed on 1 February 1915.

Ken

[MaxD]

There appears to be only one Wakley on the RAF Muster Roll but he is Alfred Edward George.  No RAF record apparent.  His pre RAF service was with the RNAS.

 

MaxD

Edited 3 August , 2021 by MaxD

[tullybrone]

Hi,

 

I haven’t got my reference books to hand but I’d say a wounding 26th August 1914 suggests he was part of 3rd CG and wounded in the rearguard action at Landrecies overnight 25/26 August 1914.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.britishbattles.com/first-world-war/battle-of-landrecies/%3famp

Steve

Edited 3 August , 2021 by tullybrone

[D Pritchard]

@kenmorrison thanks for your response to this, but I am not sure what this relates to?

[D Pritchard]

@tullybrone this is fascinating, thank you so much Steve, so much information! I have lots to read. I am writing a (personal) book about family history and the first half documents all my ancestors who fought in WW1 and WW2. 

[tullybrone]

43 minutes ago, D Pritchard said:

@tullybrone this is fascinating, thank you so much Steve, so much information! I have lots to read. I am writing a (personal) book about family history and the first half documents all my ancestors who fought in WW1 and WW2. 

You’re welcome.

His Coldstream Guards enlistment register entry is on findmypast. I’ll look it up tomorrow.

If he extended his 3 year enlistment to serve 7 years with the colours and 5 on the reserve he likely went out with a draft of men and served in Cairo Egypt with 3rd CG (Egypt 1906/1911) returning to UK March 1911 for service at Tower of London. One of my great uncles was also a pre war 3rd CG regular.

 

Steve

Edited 3 August , 2021 by tullybrone

[D Pritchard]

@tullybrone that would be great, thank you. I'm afraid I'm not too familiar with the politics of Egypt in 1906-11. I had a brief look and discovered a debate in Hansard  about the regiments 'keeping the peace' in Egypt, but that's as far as I got. I wonder if my ancestor did service at the Tower? Surely they kept a log of who did service each year? Even if he didn't, it doesn't matter I am pleased to have discovered all of this. How funny that one of your great uncles was a pre-war 3rd CG regular! 

[Mark1959]

If Arthur married Hilda S Blackmore after the war he is a lorry driver in the 1939 list. Poss a hint towards the ASC man. M prefix indicating Mechanical Transport. That looks to be correct link as Hilda and Tom, retired policeman named in 1951 probate. Address in same street as 1939. No proof to link to the ASC chap.

WR/264661 was admitted to the camp hospital in Catterick in Aug 1919. Age given as 21. So suggests born 1897/8.

Edited 3 August , 2021 by Mark1959

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

"Which WW1 army records stipulate D.O.B's?"

The only form I have seen is an R-52 (and even then not all versions), which was a form used in the Military Service Appeals Tribunals system when the Military Service Act came in.

I won't bore you with the details, but the commonest forms in use, the R43, R13 and R44 didn't even ask for the individual's age. The commonest version of the R52 asked for the age, as did the R41.

The less common version of the R52 asked for "Date of Birthday".

This generation of people had more important things to worry about than smartphone contracts, credit cards, passports or applying for state benefits, so the need to provide a date of birth was almost non existent. And when you see the way that some adult men completed the above question, you can see it was a question that they had little concept of understanding.

Here is one such form, filled in by an intelligent man claiming temporary deferrment into the army in 1916.

He sees the question, and interprets it as "When was your last birthday?" which he correctly in his mind answers " 30th September 1915...Why are you asking??"

This isn't an isolated example.
Of the versions of the R52 that ask this question, about a quarter to a half seem to interpret the answer in this way.

Strange to our eyes, but it shows that this question needed much refinement and user training before it could be used as a helpful identifier in database systems that were going to be needed in future.

[D Pritchard]

@MaxDThank you for looking into the RAF/RNAS. Yes, unlikely to be him as he had no middle name I am aware of and it did not appear as such on the 1911 census (whereas his sister who had a middle name - this was registered).

[D Pritchard]

@Mark1959thank you for suggesting he could be an ASC man. There is an Arthur Wakley = Hilda S Blackmore on the civil registration marriage index for the first quarter of 1921 in Taunton. Taunton is listed as his place of death in 1951. Is the WR/264661 an Arthur Wakley then? I was unaware there was a military hospital in Catterick - thanks for that bit of info. Do you know if records reveal why a person was in a military hospital, or does that info appear on the pension forms? Thanks

[D Pritchard]

@Dai Bach y Sowldiwr Thanks for this. Very interesting. You are right, people had different priorities and I guess some people didn't genuinely know, some people were still illiterate and perhaps it was 'convenient' for recruitment purposes not to know the exact dates?! Perhaps it was also the kind of question people did not ask, as in socially unacceptable, mind your own business type of question?