5th Norfolks Gallipoli

[james drury]

Hi all just wondered if I could pick the brains of any Norfolk experts. 

Looking in to a man who was entered on list of soldiers effects as:

'on or since 28.8.15 death presumed'

but on the CWGC he is noted as killed in acton on the 12th August. 

I have read a couple of article regarding an attack but the 5th Norfolks which seems to have had high castles and have been a little confused in the casualty returns/recording. 

just wanted to canvass opinions on the actual date of death. 

as always, very grateful for the assistance and time taken to reply. 

Bertie Plaice 2715 

 

[Matlock1418]

WFA/Fold3 Pension Index Card has 25 or 28/8/15

Image courtesy of WFA/Fold3

:-) M

Edit: Another card has a clearer 28/8/15

Edited 31 July , 2021 by Matlock1418
Edit

[james drury]

thanks :-)

I notice it says missing, the 2 brothers are fever and KIA so no  confirmation of  death. 

Have also flicked through first 100 pages of the roll for the 14/15 star for the battalion, there are 8 men so far all with 'died on or since 28.8.15' and one with  'died on or since 21.8.15' 

all of them are date of death  12.8.15 on the CWGC entries. 

having red a little more it seems the action on the 12th and the following days was a little chaotic to say the least,  by the 16th the 1/4 and 1/5th were forming a composite battalion with lots of the officer missing or casualties. 

the 1/5th diary notes on the 28th they are relived to rest camp at lalababa 'first opportunity we have had of reorganising the bttn which we took advantage of' 

just wondering if on the 28th they took stock of the missing and entered that as the date, not knowing if or when they had been missing since 

the war diary notes no casualties on the 28th 

 

[Matlock1418]

23 minutes ago, james drury said:

I notice it says missing, the 2 brothers are fever and KIA so no  confirmation of  death. 

Very sad.

Their mother got a total of  15/- pw as a dependant's pension under Article 21 (1c) of the Royal Warrant = 5/- each - which seems a fairly standard rate each.

Your working hypothesis seems quite credible - 12 Aug. 1915 being likely the last date they could accurately account for him [and the rest of the Norfolks].

:-) M

[james drury]

Incredibly sad loosing 3 sons, one other in the 1/5 Norfolks in Gaza and 1 in the Munster fusiliers, from fever in Cyprus. 

The 4th and last son enlisted in march 1916, he was only 15y 11m, he lied giving 18y 11m. 

His mother wrote to the Bttn CO requesting her son be withheld from foreign service until of  age.  He was withheld  from drafts until his birth certificate was received, he was then discharged 3 month later for having made a mis-statement as to age on enlistment. He live until 1963 

I dread to think how he felt having 3 brothers lost and being pulled back from service by his mother, it must have been a horrific time for the family. 

[PRC]

When I last checked a few years back, the CWGC database had 36 men of the 1/5th Battalion recorded as having died on the 21st August 1915 and all remembered on the Helles Memorial. A sample check of Soldiers Died in the Great War shows them categorised as "Died" - i.e. not known to have been Killed in Action or Died of Wounds. Yet the Battalion War Diary shows no action likely to have led to such losses.

In smaller numbers this carries on over subsequent days although none currently for the 28th..

And if you look at the men recorded on the CWGC database who like Bertie Plaice are shown as having died on the 12th August 1915, a check of Soldiers Died in the Great War show a variety of dates: -
2472 Arthur Durrant is shown as died on the 12th August 1915 on CWGC, 28th August 1915 on SDGW and Killed in Action 28th August 1915 on his MiC. His surviving service record shows

(Image courtesy Findmy Past).
2654 Arthur Eassom is shown as died on the 12th August 1915 on CWGC, 28th August 1915 on SDGW and on or after the 28th August 1915 on his MiC
The MiC for 2715 Bertie Plaice simply shows "Died" with no date.

My working theory, (so subject to revision and outright rebuttal ) is based on the circumstances of the time.

Following the disasterous outcome of the attack on Anafarta plain, in part caused by units swerving across each other, mixed groups of varying sizes were left in front of the allied lines. Some would come in under their own steam during the night, others were found by small patrols, while another largish group was stuck in scrub and unable to regain safety until the following night. So the true scale of the losses, particularly amongst officers and senior NCO's , was initially very hard to gauge.

Once the weakened state and lack of leadership of the 1/5th Battalion did become apparent, it was temporarily merged with the 1/4th Battalion, Norfolk Regiment. I believe this lasted roughly a week, demerging after the arrival of drafts to bring it back up to strength.

I suspect at this point there would have been the first Battalion Roll Call that had a real chance to assess the numbers lost, and may have depended on the testimony of survivors as to those missing presumed killed \ died of wounds on the battlefield. This may well be where the date of the 21st August 1915 comes from, and may well have originally been recorded as Missing between the 12th & 21st.

But not all the men would have been accounted for and with the possibility they may have been recovered wounded by other units in the chaos, and then medically evacuated, there would have been a further search. I suspect the 28th is when those men were also treated as death, or rather as with Arthur Durrant, that was the day they were formally reported missing from the roll call.

Come the end of the war and the creation of Medal Index Cards for these men in late 1918 to reflect their entitlement to the 1914/15 Star, those dates and periods would still have probably been the best the Army knew. Very little information came through from the Ottoman Red Crescent about soldiers who had died on the battlefield so there was no corrective there.

There was also little in it for the Records Clerks when it came to getting it spot on - it made no difference to the medal entitlements, the MiC was simply an aid for them to get the job done, and they could well have thousands of pages of the medal roll and related medal index cards to produce. Delving into the records to check the detail would have been time consuming.

The early twenties saw two developments - the need for brief details for each of the fallen to be extracted and fed to the HMSO for use in preparing the multi-volume Soldiers Died in the Great War, and the need for a larger extract relating to next of kin and fate \ final resting place to be fed through to the Imperial War Graves Commission for them to take over the management and maintenance of War Graves.

The HMSO undoubtedly took the information that was fed to them. For the IWGC it was just a start. Since early 1919 teams had been on the ground scouring the peninusla, there were interviews with returned prisoners and even some (limited) co-operation from the Turkish authorities. A cap badge discovery by one of the investigators led to the War Office sending out a Chaplain who had served with the Division at Gallipoli. The Rev Charles Pierrepoint Edwards examined the area where the cap badge had been uncovered and found a mass grave containing 180 bodies, from which the remains of 122 were identified as members of the 1/5th Battalion.

It is likely from then on that the recorded date of death for many members of the 1/5th Battalion which might up until then have been the 21st or 28th August may have been moved to the 12th August. Of course by then the Army had dumped responsibility for commemorating the War Dead onto the IWGC, so had little incentive to update their records. Any potential overpayment of wages \ underpayment of pension was presumably written off.

Leaving us with a head-scratching mystery nearly 106 years on, and only a theory to explain it.

Cheers,

Peter

[james drury]

Thank you so much for the reply, I agree certainly head scratching today, and horrific for the men at the time. Sadly impossible to know what really happened to men like Bertie. 

It must have been awful for his mother, her second son Arthur had enlisted in the 1/5th in march 1915 and left to join the Bttn in Egypt in Jan 1916, probably knowing his brother was missing may be with hope he was alive somewhere ? 

The third son Harold had died on the 11th November 1915 in Cyprus from fever (1st Munster Fusiliers) 

No wonder she wanted to stop her underaged 4th and last son heading off, but then how did he feel l with 1 brother dead, 1 missing, 1 heading overseas ... 

thanks you again :-)

 

[james drury]

I found this article which mentions the 3 brothers - Bertie in H company 

one quandary now is the brother Harold listed here on the 29th March 1915 serving with the 12th lancers - but 8 months later he dies on the island of Cyprus in the 1st Royal Munster fusiliers - he's one of only 3 ww1 service men buried at Polemidia British Cemetery. - sadly no service record for him. the 12th lancers were based in Norwich pre war and the brothers are from Norfolk so makes sense form that perspective. 

 

 

[PRC]

11 hours ago, james drury said:

one quandary now is the brother Harold listed here on the 29th March 1915 serving with the 12th lancers - but 8 months later he dies on the island of Cyprus in the 1st Royal Munster fusiliers - he's one of only 3 ww1 service men buried at Polemidia British Cemetery. - sadly no service record for him. the 12th lancers were based in Norwich pre war and the brothers are from Norfolk so makes sense form that perspective. 

Soldiers Died in the Great War shows him as “formerly” 8088 Lancers of the Line.

In 1906 the individual Cavalry regiments dropped their own separate service number schemes and adopted a Corps based system – Corps of Hussars, Corps of Dragoons and of course Corps of Lancers. Hence the reference to him being Lancers of the Line rather than 12th (Prince of Wales’s Royal) Lancers.

The 12th (Prince of Wales’s Royal) Lancers had gone to France in August 1914 so it would seem unlikely he had ever actually served with – more likely he was at a Cavalry Depot for training and then being held to be sent out as part of a replacement draft, nominally badged as a 12th Lancer.

Soldiers Died in the Great War shows him as “Died” rather than Died of Wounds, so more likely his death was as a result of ill-health or accident.

The CWGC webpage for the Cemetery adds nothing in the History section as to why he might have died there – most longer term casualties went via Hospital ship to Malta, Gibraltar or Alexandria or even the UK. The 1st Battalion Royal Munster Fusiliers were still on Gallipoli at the time of his death on the 11th November 1915.

Harry’s medal index card tells us he landed at Gallipoli on the 1st August 1915 but that should be treated with caution. At some records offices the practice was to record the date they sailed from the UK and so “joined” the Mediterranean Expeditory Force. The Battalion War Diary, (available on Ancestry), should be checked to see if it mentions the arrival of drafts.

Many men volunteered to go out and serve rather than kick their heels in depots in the UK, particularly if they had been in the Army since the previous August \ September. For example, sadly the day after the debacle at Anafarta, a large number of the 300 volunteers from the 3rd Battalion, Norfolk Regiment, on their way to join the 1st Essex at Gallipoli, were lost when their transport ship, the Royal Edward, was torpedoed and sunk in the Aegean.

A quick check of men with nearby service numbers on the CWGC site cross referenced to SDGW shows:-

10450 George Henry Sculthorpe killed in action 21st August 1915 serving with the 1st Battalion, aged 18, Son of William and Fanny Sculthorpe, of 11, Botolph St., Boston. Remembered on the Helles Memorial. Formerly 9130, Lancers of the Line.

10458 James Simmonds killed in action 27th March 1918 serving with the 1st Battalion, aged 25. Son of Richard Collins, of 3, Red Lion Cottages, Oakley Green, Windsor, Berks. Remembered on the Poziers Memorial. Formerly 8465 Lancers of the Line.

10461 John Craig Killed in Action 21st August 1915 serving with the 1st Battalion.  Remembered on the Helles Memorial. Formerly 5599 Lancers of the Line.

10463 Noel Frank Gooch died 22nd March 1918 serving with ‘X’ Company, 1st Battalion, aged 29 years. Son of Thomas and Eliza Gooch, of 34 West Rd., Bury St. Edmund's, Suffolk. Buried Ste. Emilie Valley Cemetery, Villers-Faucon. Formerly 6067 Lancers of the Line.

FMP have a one page memo extracted from another mans’ records that mentions 10458 J. Simmonds in a list of casualties received from Gibraltar on the 21st September 1915. Like so many who served at Gallipoli he was suffering from Dysentery but was now to be removed from the Dangerously ill category. His unit is shown as the 3rd Reserve Battalion, Royal Munster Fusiliers. None of the others have any surviving service records.

Looking for a likely date of enlistment, the National Archive shows the following nearby service numbers to 8088 for the Lancers.

8081 Alfred Cook, 5th Lancers, subsequently 332351 665th Home Service Employment Corps and 228638 Labour Corps. Landed France 12th November 1914.
L/8084 Edgar Scrimshire, 12th Lancers. Landed France 5th November 1914.
L/8085 Frederick Olphert, subsequently 42069 Middlesex Regiment. Victory Medal and British War Medal only.
L/8086 Albert W. Nash, subsequently D/15660 Corps of Dragoons. Landed France 18th May 1915.
L/8087 Hilary P. Everitt Corps of Lancers attached 6 Dragoon Guards subsequently 2nd Lieutenant Shropshire Light Infantry. Landed France 15th June 1915.
L/8089 William Mason Apps, subsequently commissioned in the Royal West Kent Regiment attached RAF, then 3rd Dragoon Guards.Landed France 28th May 1915.
L/8092 John R Judd, 12th Lancers. Victory Medal and British War Medal only. 1919 Royal Tank Corps enlistment book shows he was one of a number transferred in, served until 1935 so papers with MoD.
L/8094 Thomas Edward Johnson Steele. 12th Lancers. Silver War Badge Card. Enlisted 6th September 1914. MiC shows Victory Medal and British War Medal only. Medical Admission record shows him aboard 31 Ambulance Train on the 23rd October 1916. Serving with the 12th Lancers, he had served 2 years 1 month in Army, 11 months of which was spent with the Field Force. (So roughly enlisted about September 1914).
L/8096 David Millar, 17th Lancers. Landed France 11th January 1915.
L/8099 Clarence Bryant, 12th Lancers. Victory Medal and British War Medal only.

Filling in one of the gaps L/8082 Reginald Thomas Catherall enlisted in the 12th Lancers on the 5th September 1914. He joined the E Cavalry Depot on the 9th September 1914. He was discharged on the 17th November 1914 as not likely to become an efficient soldier.

According to the Long Long Trail the Cavalry Depot for the Lancers was at Waterford. https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/cavalry-regiments/the-cavalry-depots/

Unfortunately a search of Royal Munster Fusilier service numbers between 10445 and 10475 failed to turn up any helpful service records showing when these men transferred in.

So based on a small sample it would seem likely that he enlisted in the 12th Lancers in the opening week of September 1914.

He was then posted to a Cavalry Depot a few days later, possibly the one at Waterford, for his training, and then to be held until his unit needed him.

By mid-summer1915 many of the cohort of the men who enlisted around about the same time had been posted to France as part of replacements drafts, going to other units as needed.

It’s probably at this point he volunteered to join a draft from the Cavalry Depot to go out and serve with the 1st Battalion Royal Munster Fusiliers, perhaps in order to “see some action”.

Hope that helps,
Peter

[james drury]

wow - an amazing amount of info ! thank you so much for taking the time, it really is appreciate. I'm learning so much !

I had found the 8088 Lancer of  the line and was  searching for its meaning - which you have kindly cleared up. 

I did wonder why cavalry then infantry  - and it makes perfect sense he would be at the depot and then head off as a draft in 1915. The date in the paper 29th March 1915 shows he was still in the lancers so I will look at drafts in the 1st RMF after that and see what it turns up. 

His pension card states fever as the cause of death.

I just found an article which states 'pneumonia' following 'enteric' (which I had to google and seems quite complicated) - it lists his death as Cairo in error  as he is buried in Cyprus. 

The article also confirms him in the military since September 1914 as you thought. 

once again thank you so much for taking the time :-)

 

[james drury]

Checking the 1st RMF war diary a draft of 190 men arrived on the 2nd August 

Line of communication diary for the embarkation officer,  Mudros,  shows the Inkosi arriving on the 1st August with 'details of the 29th division' onboard  

May be the arrival in the balkan theatre was around the 1st August - I'll keep digging,