Sir Henry Beauvoir de Lisle - his movements between Jan 1917 and June 1917

[Gesenius]

Maybe my searching has not been up to scratch on this, I can not seem to find too much on Sir Henry for this period, but I would like to know when Sir Henry left after the Somme and returned to England?  I am particularly keen to know of his movements between january 1917 and june 1917, did he return to London and meet with Sir Edmund Allenby at all?  This would of course have to have been before June 28th 1917, but undoubtedly much earlier by maybe a few weeks before say beginning of June.  (Apparantly it was Sir Henry that convinced Allenby he was the man for the job in Palestine).  But for this to happen he had to have returned to London from the western front.  Thanks. 

[michaeldr]

21 hours ago, Gesenius said:

This would of course have to have been before June 28th 1917,

I don't know how much it will help here, but it occurs to me that any possible (?) window of opportunity here is most likely to have been after IInd Gaza, 19 April 1917

[Note: I have to declare that I am very much a sceptic on this subject, having just seen some American cleric's blog where Jackie Fisher is also dragged into this puzzle.] 

 

[Gesenius]

2 hours ago, michaeldr said:

I don't know how much it will help here, but it occurs to me that any possible (?) window of opportunity here is most likely to have been after IInd Gaza, 19 April 1917

[Note: I have to declare that I am very much a sceptic on this subject, having just seen some American cleric's blog where Jackie Fisher is also dragged into this puzzle.] 

 

Thanks Michael that helps to narrow the band.  But what do you mean by being a sceptic? 

Edited 29 July , 2021 by Gesenius

[michaeldr]

I'm sceptical about the involvement of de Lisle and Fisher, which I have not come across in any of the literature which I have seen.

[michaeldr]

Incidentally, I wonder where Smuts comes into this? He was offered the job before Allenby, but demanded a force to land from the sea to cut the Turkish lines of communication. This was refused by LG and therefore Smuts declined the offer.

Edited 30 July , 2021 by michaeldr

[Gesenius]

3 hours ago, michaeldr said:

Incidentally, I wonder where Smuts comes into this? He was offered the job before Allenby, but demanded a force to land from the sea to cut the Turkish lines of communication. This was refused by LG and therefore Smuts declined the offer.

I get the impression that Jan Smuts was a little fed up with conflict?  Nevertheless he also turned down a position in Irleand during the worst conflicts there He also did not succee in convincing other generals to open other fronts besides the western one at the behess of the British Parliament (Maybe not his fault)? .  I did not know about the offer to of a Palestine operation to him.  When exactly was he offered this, do you know the date?

As for the original question yes I have read that Admiral Lord Fisher, Allenby and Beavoir de Lisle had a meeting in the Grosvenor House Hotel in London shrotly before his leaving for Cairo on June 28th.    The Hilarious thing about this is that the foundations of this hotel were laid in 1920 and finished in 1929.  And at least three websites mention this meeting.  Whether any meeting took place between these three people is doubtful especially since one website claims that the secretary recorded the conversation, now did Fisher's secretary join them for coffee at the hotel?  then they must have had the meeting at his office?  No, the whole thing smacks of embellishment and I have been writing to many websites and organisations that are inaccurately reporting all sorts of nonsense.  That they do convey the Truth wrapped up in chinese whispers is my sad impression.

 

Edited 30 July , 2021 by Gesenius

[michaeldr]

Regarding the timing of a possible (??) meeting with de Lisle & Fisher:

Anglesey in Volume 5 of his History of the British Cavalry has that

- Murray was informed by cable on 11^th June that he was being replaced

- and that Allenby arrived in Cairo on 28^th June.

Raymond Savage in his Allenby of Armageddon has

“In the middle of June Allenby was summoned to London with the notification that he had selected to take over the Egyptian Command.”

Then there was a farewell dinner with Haig and a visit to the convent school at Abeele, before he left for the UK.

“In London there was much to do in a short time”

and he then left for Italy, from where a cruiser took him to Egypt.

Savage has him arriving in Cairo on the 27^th.

Matthew Hughes also has “arrived in Egypt on 27 June 1917”

[Gesenius]

1 hour ago, michaeldr said:

Regarding the timing of a possible (??) meeting

Hallo Michael, well useful information Thankyou.  Yes, in my haste at writing I messed up by typing 28th instead of 27th.   I have also read many times from different sources that Allenby, when informed that he was replacing Murray was not happy and has been directly quoted as saying:  "......If the last man failed what makes you think I will succeed"?  Now I can not find any memoir or record of this quote.  Sometimes it gets tiring when you read and the writer can not or does not provide the source for his statement.  So I need to work out how long it would take to get from UK to Italy by ship.  Then I can close the window of opportunity for any possible meeting. 

Edited 30 July , 2021 by Gesenius

[michaeldr]

1 minute ago, Gesenius said:

Allenby, when informed that he was replacing Murray was not happy and has been directly quoted as saying:  "......If the last man failed what makes you think I will succeed"? 

Matthew Hughes does not use this quotation, however he does mention that Allenby was 'desolate' on hearing the news and discussed the move with Sir Julian Byng (who [I think]  took over the Third Army from Allenby). Perhaps this particular quote comes from that meeting?

[Gesenius]

1 hour ago, michaeldr said:

Matthew Hughes does not use this quotation, however he does mention that Allenby was 'desolate' on hearing the news and discussed the move with Sir Julian Byng (who [I think]  took over the Third Army from Allenby). Perhaps this particular quote comes from that meeting?

Sorry Michael who is matthew Hughes?  You are right he did take over the Thrid army on the western front.

Edited 30 July , 2021 by Gesenius

[michaeldr]

3 minutes ago, Gesenius said:

Sorry Michael who is matthew Hughes?

see https://www.brunel.ac.uk/people/matthew-hughes

I have been referring to his 'Allenby in Palestine - the middle east correspondence of Field Marshal Viscount Allenby' published by the Army Records Society

Edited 30 July , 2021 by michaeldr

[Gesenius]

1 hour ago, michaeldr said:

see https://www.brunel.ac.uk/people/matthew-hughes

I have been referring to his 'Allenby in Palestine - the middle east correspondence of Field Marshal Viscount Allenby' published by the Army Records Society

Much appreciated Michael.

[Gesenius]

9 hours ago, michaeldr said:

“In the middle of June Allenby was summoned to London with the notification that he had selected to take over the Egyptian Command.”

Then there was a farewell dinner with Haig and a visit to the convent school at Abeele, before he left for the UK.

from Brad Fraught's book, Allenby left for London from France on 6th June, he received word tht he was going to head the EEF on 5th June.  He had a meeting with Lloyd George on 8th June, he left for Italy on the 18th June and arrived Alexandria on 27th June and took a train to Cairo.  this makes it confusing to understand how Murray received his orders on 11th June?? - since Allenby was told on 5th June that he was going to replace Murray.  Unless of course a telegram took 4 or 5 days to arrive and then Murray actually received it on the 11th .

As for his visit to a convent school,  It was probably this place  https://www.geneanet.org/cartes-postales/view/5692816#0,  I saw this road on Google earth street view and it has not changed at all except of course the tarmac.  

[michaeldr]

17 hours ago, Gesenius said:

As for his visit to a convent school,  It was probably this place  https://www.geneanet.org/cartes-postales/view/5692816#0,  I saw this road on Google earth street view and it has not changed at all except of course the tarmac.

Allenby's V Corps HQ had adjoined the convent school at Abeele