Albert Hill V.C. Any help with other identities in a photo

[Keelagher]

I am from the same Town as Private Albert Hill V.C. and he is rightly revered as a local hero, this picture is often used locally of him. He is bottom right, I have no idea of the identities of the other fellows although I suspect they may have been medal winners or something similar. I assume the sergeant top right is and Australian of the AIF, The Corporal right has 2 stripes on his left arm are they wound stripes or some sort of merit stripe? The bloke bottom left looks like he maybe an officer from his leather webbing and epaulettes. Private Hills uniform appears to be of a more basic design than the others was this a later pattern without the fancy stuff to save material. Any info would be greatly appreciated.

What I do know: Private Albert Hill V.C.

Albert Hill was born in Hulme Manchester on the 24th May 1895, and he was one of ten children. Albert was the son of Thomas Hill and Elizabeth Pegg. After leaving school he started work in a mill, but later started an apprenticeship planker at Wilson Hat Factory, Wilton Street Denton.

Albert joined the 10th Battalion, Private 15280, Royal Fusiliers 0n August the 14th . He was awarded the Victoria Cross for his actions at Delville Wood, part of the Battle of the Somme, which happened on the 20th July 1916.

Albert returned to work at Wilson’s in 1919, a year later he married Doris Wilson, on the 14th February 1920 at St George’s Hyde Cheshire.

Albert and Doris emigrated to America, where they settled and brought up a family of three daughters and a son.

Albert died in 1971 Pawtucket Rhode Island, and was buried with full military honours.

 

[FROGSMILE]

Albert was in the Royal Welsh Fusiliers at the time of winning his Victoria Cross and I don’t know of any connection with the Royal Fusiliers (City of London Regiment) whose cap badge was a distinctly different shape.

When I was still a young soldier and serving with 1st Bn RWF (still in existence at the time) I distinctly recall Albert Hill’s story appearing in the regimental journal, Y DDRAIG GOCH (the Red Dragon) along with a photograph of his headstone in the USA.  This was around 1971.

The other men in the photo are likely to be fellow recipients of gallantry medals that were presented on the same occasion.  Such groups were usually photographed by the press.  A press archives search might reveal their names.

Edited 26 July , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Allan1892]

The web site 'Find A Grave' has a smashing photograph of him wearing his VC. The entry also shows his grave.

Link as follows:

Albert Hill (1895-1971) - Find A Grave Memorial

[sadbrewer]

A report on the action by his platoon Sgt.

Courtesy of the British Newspaper Archive.

 

[sadbrewer]

In a slightly confusing article that starts by saying four VC's were presented on the day, it finishes by saying five...they were ...

2nd Lt Gabriel George Coury of the South Lancashire Regt,

Cpl ( later Sgt) Sanders of The West Yorks.

Pvt William Jackson Australian IF.

Pvt Albert Hill, Royal Welsh Fusiliers.

''Todger'' Jones. (Edit...Thomas Alfred Jones, Cheshire Regt.)

Courtesy of the British Newspaper Archive.

 

 

Edited 26 July , 2021 by sadbrewer

[FROGSMILE]

I think that the photo possibly shows Todger Jones of the Cheshire’s (two wound stripes), Jackson of the Australian Infantry (although a sergeant in the photo?), Albert Hill of the RWF and a unnamed Warrant Officer Class 1 (wearing leather Sam Browne belt) of the King’s Own (Royal Lancaster Regiment) - probably the 8th (Service) Battalion going by the coloured shoulder straps that were worn by that unit from Jul 1916 to end 1917.  They might not necessarily all be VC recipients.  I imagine that there’s an accurate caption out there somewhere.

Edited 27 July , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Keelagher]

Thank you fellas I find it fascinating how so much can be discerned from a 100 year old photo, such a depth of knowledge on this site

[travers61]

I don't think the Australian serviceman in the photo could be Private William Jackson VC, as he had lost part of his right arm in the action on 25/26 June 1916 for which he was awarded the VC. The remainder of his arm was amputated soon after on the hospital ship St Patrick while he was being evacuated back to England.  The man in the photo has his left arm by his side, but you can see his right hand clearly. Jackson was a private when he received the VC.

https://adb.anu.edu.au/biography/jackson-john-william-6813

 

 

[FROGSMILE]

3 minutes ago, travers61 said:

I don't think the Australian serviceman in the photo could be Private William Jackson VC, as he had lost part of his right arm in the action on 25/26 June 1916 for which he was awarded the VC. The remainder of his arm was amputated soon after on the hospital ship St Patrick while he was being evacuated back to England.  The man in the photo has his left arm by his side, but you can see his right hand clearly. Jackson was a private when he received the VC.

https://adb.anu.edu.au/biography/jackson-john-william-6813

 

 

Yes I agree, it did seem a bit of a stretch for him to suddenly become a sergeant too.  I was hoping that the original caption might be found in a newspaper archive, as it does seem like a typical publicity shot, but so far no one has found it.

 

Edited 2 August , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[travers61]

Have had no luck in matching the others to VC's awarded at the same investiture. 

Another factor that may help date the photo to after his Nov 1916 investiture is that Albert seems to be wearing the ribbon of the Croix De Guerre with Bronze Palm, which he was awarded 9th December 1916.

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/29854/supplement/12040

[FROGSMILE]

7 minutes ago, travers61 said:

Have had no luck in matching the others to VC's awarded at the same investiture. 

Another factor that may help date the photo to after his Nov 1916 investiture is that Albert seems to be wearing the ribbon of the Croix De Guerre with Bronze Palm, which he was awarded 9th December 1916.

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/29854/supplement/12040

Well spotted!  Perhaps it relates to a publicity shot for that award then, with the other sitters also receiving awards of some kind.

[travers61]

Several web pages also say that he was also awarded the Russian Cross of St George, although I have not been able to find a date for this, and in the photo he is not wearing that ribbon.

Oddly that medal is not among his VC group held at the RWF Museum.

http://vconline.org.uk/albert-hill-vc/4586985947

[FROGSMILE]

11 minutes ago, travers61 said:

Several web pages also say that he was also awarded the Russian Cross of St George, although I have not been able to find a date for this, and in the photo he is not wearing that ribbon.

Oddly that medal is not among his VC group held at the RWF Museum.

http://vconline.org.uk/albert-hill-vc/4586985947

Yes it does seem odd.  It’s always been the British policy that the wearing of foreign decorations has to be explicitly approved by our reigning Sovereign.  I wonder if there was a period when Russian decorations were no longer permitted to be worn after that nation became a Marxist/Communist state under Lenin.  However, that’s pure speculation on my part.  I cannot think of any other reason though.  Knowing what other recipients did might confirm matters.  After all at the time of the award the Czar of all the Russia’s was our King’s cousin (as was Kaiser Wilhelm though).

Edited 3 August , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[travers61]

I can see the medal and ribbon not actually being received in the UK & presented due to the fluid situation in Russia, and this causing a delay/stop to any gazette entries for permission to wear the medal.

This reduces the possibility of the photo being a group of Russian Medal winners.

Edited 3 August , 2021 by travers61

[sadbrewer]

Another photo and article to muddy the waters.

 

 

[FROGSMILE]

There were clearly so many photo opportunities taken by the press that you get a real feel for how lauded and feted the recipients were for a short time.  It's not difficult to imagine how it felt when they were dropped as yesterday's news, although some were probably quite grateful to be left alone.

Edited 3 August , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[travers61]

Although most likely a publicity shot of some kind with local soldiers or other medal winners, I have also thought it could be a photo of Albert's extended family taken in a local photography studio. The Australian soldier is maybe an English born relation.

[Bordercollie]

If the man wearing the sam browne and blue epaulettes is the sergeant major of the 8th Battalion King’s Own Royal Lancaster Regiment he is probably 4641 Henry Dewhurst Sowerbutts.  He took up the appointment on 12th October 1914 when the battalion formed and he was discharged on 24th December 1917.  His VM&BWM roll gives his battalion as the 8th and his 1914/15 Star medal roll gives his date of entry into theatre as 27th September 1915 which is the date the 8th battalion landed in France.  The Army List gives his battalion as the 6th but that appears to be a misprint.  I cannot find any record of a gallantry award or mention-in-dispatches for him.  His pension index card gives his address as Wellington Street, Lancaster.  So if he is the right man that seems to rule out the group photograph being connected to an investiture or resulting from some local connection.

[Chesterboy]

On 26/07/2021 at 18:52, FROGSMILE said:

I think that the photo possibly shows Todger Jones of the Cheshire’s (two wound stripes), Jackson of the Australian Infantry (although a sergeant in the photo?), Albert Hill of the RWF and a unnamed Warrant Officer Class 1 (wearing leather Sam Browne belt) of the King’s Own (Royal Lancaster Regiment) - probably the 8th (Service) Battalion going by the coloured shoulder straps that were worn by that unit from Jul 1916 to end 1917.  They might not necessarily all be VC recipients.  I imagine that there’s an accurate caption out there somewhere.

The soldier with the two wound strips is not Thomas Alfred Jones VC, DCM of the Cheshire Regiment. 
 

 

[FROGSMILE]

41 minutes ago, Chesterboy said:

The soldier with the two wound strips is not Thomas Alfred Jones VC, DCM of the Cheshire Regiment. 
 

 

Thanks Chesterboy, it was becoming increasingly clear that none of those in the photo were the other VCs mentioned for the investiture.  The warrant officer in the King’s Own was a clue that all wasn’t what it seemed and it’s been all downhill since then as one by one the other individuals haven’t fit.  It seems likely it was an entirely different grouping, but for what exactly remains unclear.

Edited 4 August , 2021 by FROGSMILE