danBww1 Posted 26 July , 2021 Posted 26 July , 2021 Hi All, I have been attempting to sort out the families geology, So with this in mind I have been looking into my great grandfather war record. Quite a novice when it comes to the great war and how engagement where recorded. Anyone else noticed the marks on some cards like stripes down the card, some have faint red marking in addition if you invert the image on ancestry some cards have a faint leaf which I read means "mentioned in despatches" but the war card doesn't support this. G Wilkinson 124605 Any help would be appreciated. have applied filters to make it easier to see Dan
rksimpson Posted 26 July , 2021 Posted 26 July , 2021 Hi The faint leaf on Ancestry is their brand mark (for copyright purposes), nothing to do with MID's. No idea about the marks, but maybe made when they ran them through scanning machines??? regards Robert
Admin Michelle Young Posted 26 July , 2021 Admin Posted 26 July , 2021 The Mentioned in Dispatches was a spray of oak leaves, to be worn in the ribbon. I believe if awarded, it says emblem on the medal card.
PRC Posted 26 July , 2021 Posted 26 July , 2021 (edited) Hi @danBww1 and welcome to the forum. Really love the thought of family geology btw - it certainly has many layers Your man only qualified for the British War Medal, which means he served overseas but not in a Theatre of War. The most usual location was with the garrison in India, although as an RGA man there were a number of locations where he might have served as part of port defences - Singapore \ Hong Kong \ Bermuda \ South Africa and Gibraltar are the ones that spring immediately to mind. Because of the nature of the award it is difficult to tell when he first went abroad, although it's more likely to be on or after the 1st January 1916. If that is the case then likely he went out as part of a replacement draft rather than as part of the original deployment overseas of his unit. Unfortunately like the vast majority of other ranks records, his appear to have gone up in flames when in WW2 German bombs hit the London Warehouse where they were being stored. Hopefully some of the forum artillery afficianado's like @David Porter or @rflory may be able to tease out a little bit more from his service number. If not a search of men with nearby service numbers to see if they have surviving service records may enable you to pick up some recurring themes like date and place of enlistment \ conscription and where their initial training was. Also if George married or the marriage produced children during the time he might have been serving, then the related certificates may have more information about his unit under grooms \ fathers occupation. And if you know roughly where he might have been living immediately post-war then you could try working back to the 1918 & 1919 Absent Voters List. There is a bit more about how that can help on our parent site, the Long, Long Trail. https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/how-to-research-a-soldier/finding-soldiers-through-the-1918-absent-voters-lists/ A quick look at the Commonwealth War Graves Commission website brings up:- 124618 Gunner Albert George Garner died 26th October 1917 serving in Belgium with 202nd Siege Battery. 124669 Acting Bombardier R. Bate died 3rd November 1917 serving in Belgium with 352nd Siege Battery. 124674 Gunner E. Hole died 15th September 1918 in France serving with 299th Siege Battery. There was no one with a service number starting 1245xx. so looking more likely these were all later war men. Hope some of that helps, Peter Edited 26 July , 2021 by PRC Typo
BillyH Posted 26 July , 2021 Posted 26 July , 2021 In the early sixties the primitive Xerox copiers of the time used to produce the same streaks. However I imagine Ancestry only scanned the medal cards in the 1990's or 2,000's? BillyH.
Matlock1418 Posted 26 July , 2021 Posted 26 July , 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, PRC said: Really love the thought of family geology btw - it certainly has many layers Dan, Another welcome to GWF. We at GWF like to do a bit of digging! There are red ink marked tops to some pension cards - not sure the purpose is fully known [well it is not to me!] but would probably have been to aid the filing clerks [Note to self = look into that more]. There are sometimes small marks/images of a leaf on some records at Ancestry that rather look like they have been rubber stamped [?] - I've previously thought possibly an ID of a clerk/supervisor/auditor [?] but I couldn't hazard beyond that [certainly not a note of a MiD]. Now I am reconsidering my first thought thanks to your enquiry. Every day can be a school day! I reckon most of the linear marks are just storage/scanning artefacts - So generally I suggest that you look predominantly at the content on the cards etc. If you need more help with anyone, then just ask! For example: George Wilkinson, 124606, RGA has two pension cards at the Western Front Association/Fold3, From a Pension Index Card - Claimed for an unspecified disability [could be physical injury or medical condition] - after discharge 21.10.19 - initially got 5/6 pw 22.10.19 to 20.4.20. His address was 262 Tottingham Rd, Tottingham, Bolton. [Any main pension file is long lost as most were destroyed after their use had ended - and I can't find him amongst the few retained, as PIN 26 files, at The National Archive]. The 5/6 pw seems to match the rate for a Gunner on the 1917 Royal Warrant on pay & pensions = 20% disability [for employment purposes]. The later 1919 RW [can't recall when it came into force] gave a slightly higher rate - but either way this pension would end if the disability fell below 20% - a one-off final gratuity would commonly then be paid. From a Pension Pension Index Card - a small annotation of Grat 20.12.20 - so it looks as though sometime in 1920 is when his pension ended = so hopefully whatever he claimed for was not too severe or long-term. Good luck. :-) M Edited 26 July , 2021 by Matlock1418 typo
corisande Posted 26 July , 2021 Posted 26 July , 2021 There are sometimes small marks/images of a leaf on some records at Ancestry that rather look like they have been rubber stamped [?] - I've previously thought possibly an ID of a clerk/supervisor/auditor [?] but I couldn't hazard beyond that [certainly not a note of a MiD]. Now I am reconsidering my first thought thanks to your enquiry. Every day can be a school day! It is a watermark put there by ancestry to establish their copyright. They all have it on, its just a question of finding them - if you put the MIC into something like Photoshop, and alter the brightness you can usually find the leaf They are aded electronically as part of the copying of the card by Ancestry
Matlock1418 Posted 26 July , 2021 Posted 26 July , 2021 1 minute ago, corisande said: It is a watermark put there by ancestry to establish their copyright. Thanks for clarifying - obviously missed a lot of them - not looking hard enough? = Everyday a school day! :-) M
rksimpson Posted 26 July , 2021 Posted 26 July , 2021 3 hours ago, Michelle Young said: The Mentioned in Dispatches was a spray of oak leaves, to be worn in the ribbon. I believe if awarded, it says emblem on the medal card. Yes that is right, usually on the bottom left under "date of entry therein" 13 minutes ago, corisande said: It is a watermark put there by ancestry to establish their copyright. As I said before! regards and welcome! Robert
David Porter Posted 26 July , 2021 Posted 26 July , 2021 Despite being tagged in this thread, I'm not an expert on the RGA. However, a glance at the roll the card is the index for indicates, as Peter said, that George was only entitled to the British War Medal. It also says he was in 7 Company RGA, which the Long Long Trail says was in Gibraltar. As for his number, I do know that the RGA series lagged the RH & RFA one by several months so it was probably issued in the Summer of 1916.
danBww1 Posted 26 July , 2021 Author Posted 26 July , 2021 Right, thankyou for taking an interest. If ancestry are adding that into all the images fine, ( but it shouldn't be in the middle of the card, and its not ancestry's leaf ) I have subjected some cards to the same filters and they don't have them, it depends mainly on which type of card you have. I will randomly check some and post. I think @ corisande you are correct they are marking of a clerk/supervisor/auditor, If you consider how this type of system ( medal awards, leave pensions out(at the monument) would have to evolve there would have to be a way of tracking the record between various sites, offices even desks. What type of ink where they using? or was it just pencils, a say watered down ink would not not the longevity on tradition inks. They must have used stamps, the engravers of the day where far more precise The war office clerks witting arms must be the size of Arnold’s if they had to write everything The Ancestry images appear to have been taken at extreme light levels, which would hide anything that was faded. Will think and look some more and post again. Dan
Admin Michelle Young Posted 26 July , 2021 Admin Posted 26 July , 2021 As someone who helped rehouse the medal index cards, and handled a great deal of them, I saw no leaves on the cards. One thing it certainly isn't is a mention in dispatches, and, as others have said, it's a watermark.
Matlock1418 Posted 26 July , 2021 Posted 26 July , 2021 (edited) Here's an example of a MIC with a leaf that I have previously seen Image courtesy of Ancestry [or Ancestry/Fold3] Clerk/Supervisor/Auditor'stamp or Ancestry watermark? or MiD? [In this case I'm wobbling on ruling that possibility out now!] ??? :-) M Edit; Here's another MIC with a leaf - without a MiD/Emblem annotation Image courtesy of Ancestry [or Ancestry/Fold3] A quick London Gazette search didn't turn up any entry, let alone a MiD [but I know the LG search is potentially a bit challenging and sometimes hard to get hits] Edited 26 July , 2021 by Matlock1418 Edit
ss002d6252 Posted 26 July , 2021 Posted 26 July , 2021 It's a watermark from ancestry - why they only appear on some items I don't know but I've seen them occasionally on different record sets. If you look at the same MIC on the N/A you'll see the image isn't there. It was added to the colour scans that Ancestry made. Craig
SteveE Posted 26 July , 2021 Posted 26 July , 2021 9 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said: Clerk/Supervisor/Auditor'stamp or Ancestry watermark? or MiD? [In this case I'm wobbling on ruling that possibility out now!] As others before me have already said I have always believed it to be an Ancestry watermark created when they scanned the cards back in the day. The previous, poorer quality, scanning originally done by the National Archives didn't have the same watermark.... For comparison... [Image courtesy of National Archives] Steve
Matlock1418 Posted 26 July , 2021 Posted 26 July , 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, SteveE said: The previous, poorer quality, scanning originally done by the National Archives didn't have the same watermark.... For comparison... Thanks for the comparison [hadn't got there yet. as sidetracked by another thread!] - very handy. Less wobbly on a MiD explanation now! :-) M Edit - likewise similar thanks to you Craig @ss002d6252 Gone off the clerk/supervisor/auditor option too ;-)M That seems to have got to the bottom of that leaf for the OP I think - well you have now convinced me anyway! Edited 26 July , 2021 by Matlock1418 edit and then later correction of a typo within
danBww1 Posted 26 July , 2021 Author Posted 26 July , 2021 Hi again all, What have I just walked into applied some overlays and filters, applied only to the photocopy. Look what I found, not readable but it centres round the location of mentioned leaf, plus all the rest, some of it will be background noise (ink smugges dirt finger prints ect) but some of it must relate to this card.
corisande Posted 26 July , 2021 Posted 26 July , 2021 I douht that we will convince the skeptics, But a Watermark added digitally to the scan is what it is. All MICs on Ancestry have it somewhere, its not always in the same place on the scan. And you can find it if you really want to by enhancing the brightness of the scan. It is there to stop you stealing their scans. Look up photographic watermarks on Google for how to add a watermark Here is an example of the original scan, where the leaf watermark is difficult to spot, and where it is when you turn down the brightness
danBww1 Posted 26 July , 2021 Author Posted 26 July , 2021 I feel that I should explain more, we have a photo for my great grandfather that was damaged, And I was trying to digitally recreate it for my M&D golden wedding, got more than I bargained for. The photo not only had been altered not damaged and was covered in writing. So I started working on a technique for pulling information from postcards and photos (just for the family tree)The technique is similar to the one they use to recreate lost works of art from behind others (see mona lisas smiles) the names are usually written on the back. But there usually more a lot more. Have been trying to apply it to my great grandfathers card without much success. Every available area has been damaged, by overwriting and stamps in my humble opinion. When it is applied to certain MIC from the national achieves it appears to produce results very quickly, but when applied to a full image ancestry ones. it will require some further work, it appears. I have suspect that my great grandfathers, card is not right for some time and have been picking round the edges of the great war for a couple of years. Trying to look at it from a different perspective, hence the reason I ask about ink. Dan
Matlock1418 Posted 26 July , 2021 Posted 26 July , 2021 12 minutes ago, danBww1 said: Trying to look at it from a different perspective And why not? I have learnt something more today - despite having previously seen a leaf image, made an [incorrect] assumption and then just moved on without further thought for origin or possible analytical significance = every day a school day on GWF! Wishing you luck with your endeavours. :-) M
charlie962 Posted 26 July , 2021 Posted 26 July , 2021 (edited) 5 hours ago, David Porter said: Despite being tagged in this thread, I'm not an expert on the RGA. However, a glance at the roll the card is the index for indicates, as Peter said, that George was only entitled to the British War Medal. It also says he was in 7 Company RGA, which the Long Long Trail says was in Gibraltar. As for his number, I do know that the RGA series lagged the RH & RFA one by several months so it was probably issued in the Summer of 1916. Near number James Grayston 124608 has this interesting relevant summary on his service record. The service number would be issued c. the mobilization date 7/11/16. Courtesy FindmyPast Note shipped off to Gib less than 4 wks after mobilization. Edited 26 July , 2021 by charlie962
danBww1 Posted 26 July , 2021 Author Posted 26 July , 2021 very interesting, hmm will have to look into that. Would that suggest that they had already served in some capacity?
KernelPanic Posted 26 July , 2021 Posted 26 July , 2021 (edited) I think the only way to resolve what is on the original card and what might or might not have been added later (either deliberately by Ancestry, or as a digital copying artifact) is to carefully examine the original. The rest is just speculation. Edited 26 July , 2021 by KernelPanic
petwes Posted 26 July , 2021 Posted 26 July , 2021 (edited) According to Kevin Rowlinson's painstaking research the service number would indicate an enlistment posting date between 7 October to 8 November 1916 Edited 26 July , 2021 by petwes
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