South Irish Horse Query

[GJW]

Hello,

I am struggling to locate this man in the SIH - He did serve in the RDF for sure. Also, that the below says he signed up in Ayr. Can I trust this source of information even though it is on Ancestry?

All help appreciated.

Thanks,

Gerard

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

What document is this?

Can you post the link?

[Matlock1418]

21 hours ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

What document is this?

Quickly making a stab - Rather looks like 'Soldiers Died in the Great War" to me.

Understand SDGW was compiled from official sources [so generally rather more reliable than, for example, a National Roll of the Great War entry!]

But who knows with Ancestry transcriptions ??!

Anyone got a SDGW to check?

:-) M

Edit: Gerard, My No 1 go to resource - WFA/Fold3 pension cards - sadly sheds no light on this SIH, only RDF - but you might like to know one card records for SHIEL, E. 21067: Died PoW, Diptheria [Diptheria being later added in 1932 it appears].

Looking at SHIEL. E. 21067 ICRC PoW record https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/5095839/3/2 I couldn't help but note on the line below a SHIELDS, W. 25780 also captured at Ronsoy, 21.3.18 - he was SIH = ???

Edited 26 July , 2021 by Matlock1418
Edit & improve ICRC link, later added name & no. for more clarity

[PRC]

Information comes from Soldiers Died in the Great War which in turn was compiled from information extracted from the soldiers service record. As the exercise was done in the early 1920's, not only were all the records still in existance, but the weeding process had probably barely begun.

So the real question is then how much do you trust (a) the service records and (b) the wisdom of the army clerk taking the extract.

Just to give an example, I've just been wading through some very confusing records for men who were conscripted in November 1916. They 'joined' at Huddersfield, were "accepted' at Halifax and 'reported' at Heaton. In subsequent pages all three places are shown as where they joined the Army. If they had died and had an entry on SDGW, who knows which one of the three would have been chosen by the relevant Army Clerk - and whether all Army Clerks would have made the same decision.

The formerly unit is almost certainly the very first unit they went to, most likely a Home Service unit, and if the soldiers records are lost it might be the only way of finding this out. A check of nearby service numbers for the Royal Dublin Fusiliers might turn up someone with surviving service records which shows a draft from the South Irish Horse.

Cheers,
Peter

[corisande]

He does not appear on

http://www.southirishhorse.com/siysihall.htm

[PRC]

Taking my own advice led to a Medal Index Card for 21072 Thomas K. Ward Royal Dublin Fusiliers.

Thomas has surviving service records which shows he joined on either the 15th or 18th April 1917, (both dates are used) at Liverpool. He was posted to the South Irish Horse, service number 2878.

His B.103 Casualty Form - Active is headed up "S.I.Hor" but there is then a very inconvenient tear.

The top lines of the report are very faded - I've tried increasing the contrast and darkening the image but I'm not sure it's any easier to make out that the first line is dated 30.8.17 and the report was received from the "S.I. Hse." and possibly relates to a Transfer to the R.D.F. but other interpretations are available

(All images courtesy of FindMyPast)

It's not entirely clear when he transferred to the Royal Dublin Fusiliers - at the time of his discharge in 1919 he is shown as 6th Battalion Royal Dublin Fusiliers attached 10th Machine Gun Battalion.

Hope that helps, (or at least doesn't muddy the water too much!)
Peter

[Matlock1418]

1 hour ago, corisande said:

He does not appear on

http://www.southirishhorse.com/siysihall.htm

That appears to be the case for E. Shiel [but W. Shields does seem to be there] - however, one wonders how they compiled their list ??

If just/predominantly off MIC, if he had not served o/s with them, then that would skew and probably explain his absence. ???

:-) M

[PRC]

17 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

That appears to be the case for E. Shiel [but W. Shields does seem to be there] - however, one wonders how they compiled their list ??

Thomas Ward is also not on there. I don't think the website claims to be a complete list.

Cheers,
Peter

[Matlock1418]

58 minutes ago, PRC said:

first line is dated 30.8.17 and the report was received from the "S.I. Hse." and possibly relates to a Transfer to the R.D.F. but other interpretations are available

I read/interpret as you Peter [or is it a suggestive prompt from you!? - I don't think so]

32 minutes ago, PRC said:

I don't think the website claims to be a complete list.

Think likewise - maybe we have found two more names for them [?]

:-) M

[GJW]

19 hours ago, Matlock1418 said:

Quickly making a stab - Rather looks like 'Soldiers Died in the Great War" to me.

Understand SDGW was compiled from official sources [so generally rather more reliable than, for example, a National Roll of the Great War entry!]

But who knows with Ancestry transcriptions ??!

Anyone got a SDGW to check?

:-) M

Edit: Gerard, My No 1 go to resource - WFA/Fold3 pension cards - sadly sheds no light on this SIH, only RDF - but you might like to know one card records Died PoW, Diptheria [Diptheria being later added in 1932 it appears].

Looking at SHIEL. E. 21067 ICRC PoW record https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/5095839/3/2 I couldn't help but note on the line below a SHIELDS, W. 25780 also captured at Ronsoy, 21.3.18 - he was SIH = ???

That is very interesting about the other POW - It was my understanding that the SIH merged into the Royal Irish Regiment in late 1917. 

[GJW]

8 hours ago, PRC said:

Taking my own advice led to a Medal Index Card for 21072 Thomas K. Ward Royal Dublin Fusiliers.

Thomas has surviving service records which shows he joined on either the 15th or 18th April 1917, (both dates are used) at Liverpool. He was posted to the South Irish Horse, service number 2878.

His B.103 Casualty Form - Active is headed up "S.I.Hor" but there is then a very inconvenient tear.

The top lines of the report are very faded - I've tried increasing the contrast and darkening the image but I'm not sure it's any easier to make out that the first line is dated 30.8.17 and the report was received from the "S.I. Hse." and possibly relates to a Transfer to the R.D.F. but other interpretations are available

(All images courtesy of FindMyPast)

It's not entirely clear when he transferred to the Royal Dublin Fusiliers - at the time of his discharge in 1919 he is shown as 6th Battalion Royal Dublin Fusiliers attached 10th Machine Gun Battalion.

Hope that helps, (or at least doesn't muddy the water too much!)
Peter

If both your man and my man were in the SIH - there is only a 100 numbers between them. 

[vaugh]

Hi GJW and M,

Edward Shiel is in my database but not on the SIY-SIH list noted in the link above, somehow missed him off, Ward is however a new man for me. So thanks for bringing him to my attention, he's number 1886 in my database bringing my total to around 1880 men, so many thanks once again.
Quite a few men joined the South Irish Horse in 1917 and were trained then transferred to the Leinster Regiment and the Royal Dublin Fusiliers. These two men, Shiel and Ward are two such men. Leave this with me and I'll have a deeper look into my information and answer the specific questions posed above.

Edward Shiel 2970 SIH would have enlisted around May/June 1917.
Thomas Ward 2870 SIH enlisted 18th April 1917
Washington Shields 1503 SIH enlisted in early September 1916.

On 26/07/2021 at 18:49, GJW said:

That is very interesting about the other POW - It was my understanding that the SIH merged into the Royal Irish Regiment in late 1917.

Roughly 1000 or so men of 1st and 2nd SIH were transferred to the infantry becoming the 7th (SIH) Battalion Royal Irish Regiment a further four hundred or so remained as cavalry.

[vaugh]

On 26/07/2021 at 10:00, PRC said:

It's not entirely clear when he transferred to the Royal Dublin Fusiliers - at the time of his discharge in 1919 he is shown as 6th Battalion Royal Dublin Fusiliers attached 10th Machine Gun Battalion.

Hope that helps, (or at least doesn't muddy the water too much!)
Peter

Hi again,

His military history sheet gives a clearer picture, see attached. (Ancestry link for those with access: https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/1219/images/31239_205754-01055?treeid=&personid=&hintid=&queryId=f30e0c8f55e68716fa290d9334547d38&usePUB=true&_phsrc=yDI60547&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&pId=2063454)
Joined SIH 18.4.17
Transferred R Dublin Fus 23 8 17 maintains present rate of pay. (Calvary rates, around 2d per day extra)
6th  (R Dub Fus) Posted 12 12 17
Depot Posted 19 4 19
6th Embarked port Said 27. 3. 19
To rejoin unit in France
Depot Posted 19. 4. 19
Transferred to Class  "Z" Army 4. 6. 19 Dublin

[GJW]

Thanks Peter - do you have an Arthur J. O. Anderson on your list by chance - his 7th Batt RIRgt number was 8096. I have a reference that he served SIH.

Gerard

[PRC]

On 09/10/2021 at 16:21, GJW said:

Thanks Peter - do you have an Arthur J. O. Anderson on your list by chance - his 7th Batt RIRgt number was 8096. I have a reference that he served SIH.

Gerard

Hi @GJW

Was your query aimed at me or Doug ( @vaugh )? I'm afraid I don't have any lists.

Cheers,
Peter

[GJW]

Sorry Peter - Yes it was directed at Vaugh as he has a list of SIH - i think

[museumtom]

       Anderson, Arthur John Orpen. (Cork, Queen’s County/Laois). Rank- Corporal. Regiment/Service: Royal Irish Regiment. Unit: 7th Battalion (South Irish Horse). Ser No: 8096. Date of death: 21/03/1918. Age: 28. Born: Ballinlinan, Queen’s County. Enlisted: Roscrea, County Tipperary. Residence: Dunmanway, County Cork. Death: Killed in action. Next of kin, etc: Son of Samuel and Mary Letitia Anderson, of Church St., Dunanway, Co. Cork.

          The Irish Times, March 21, 1919. In Memoriam. Anderson-In fond memory of my beloved Corporal Arthur Anderson, R. I. Regiment, son of Mr and Mrs Anderson Dunmanway, killed in action, March 21st, 1918. “What though in lonely grief I sigh. For one beloved, no longer nigh. Submissive still would I reply. ‘Thy will be done. ’”

          Irish Times. Anderson-March 21, 1918, first reported missing, now reported killed on that date, Corporal Arthur John Orpen, R. I. Regiment, (S. I. H. ), son of Samuel and Mary Letitia Anderson, Church Street, Dunmanway, County Cork.

Grave/Memorial: Panel 30 and 31.

Edited 12 October , 2021 by museumtom

[FROGSMILE]

On 26/07/2021 at 10:00, PRC said:

Taking my own advice led to a Medal Index Card for 21072 Thomas K. Ward Royal Dublin Fusiliers.

Thomas has surviving service records which shows he joined on either the 15th or 18th April 1917, (both dates are used) at Liverpool. He was posted to the South Irish Horse, service number 2878.

His B.103 Casualty Form - Active is headed up "S.I.Hor" but there is then a very inconvenient tear.

The top lines of the report are very faded - I've tried increasing the contrast and darkening the image but I'm not sure it's any easier to make out that the first line is dated 30.8.17 and the report was received from the "S.I. Hse." and possibly relates to a Transfer to the R.D.F. but other interpretations are available

(All images courtesy of FindMyPast)

It's not entirely clear when he transferred to the Royal Dublin Fusiliers - at the time of his discharge in 1919 he is shown as 6th Battalion Royal Dublin Fusiliers attached 10th Machine Gun Battalion.

Hope that helps, (or at least doesn't muddy the water too much!)
Peter

Top line reads: 30.8.17 - S I Hse - 3rd RDF Transferred.

2nd line reads: 23.10.17 - B O 252 - Passed Rifle Bombing Test.

[GJW]

5 hours ago, museumtom said:

       Anderson, Arthur John Orpen. (Cork, Queen’s County/Laois). Rank- Corporal. Regiment/Service: Royal Irish Regiment. Unit: 7th Battalion (South Irish Horse). Ser No: 8096. Date of death: 21/03/1918. Age: 28. Born: Ballinlinan, Queen’s County. Enlisted: Roscrea, County Tipperary. Residence: Dunmanway, County Cork. Death: Killed in action. Next of kin, etc: Son of Samuel and Mary Letitia Anderson, of Church St., Dunanway, Co. Cork.

          The Irish Times, March 21, 1919. In Memoriam. Anderson-In fond memory of my beloved Corporal Arthur Anderson, R. I. Regiment, son of Mr and Mrs Anderson Dunmanway, killed in action, March 21st, 1918. “What though in lonely grief I sigh. For one beloved, no longer nigh. Submissive still would I reply. ‘Thy will be done. ’”

          Irish Times. Anderson-March 21, 1918, first reported missing, now reported killed on that date, Corporal Arthur John Orpen, R. I. Regiment, (S. I. H. ), son of Samuel and Mary Letitia Anderson, Church Street, Dunmanway, County Cork.

Grave/Memorial: Panel 30 and 31.

Thanks Tom.

5 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

Top line reads: 30.8.17 - S I Hse - 3rd RDF Transferred.

2nd line reads: 23.10.17 - B O 252 - Passed Rifle Bombing Test.

Cheers Peter. I will add to the spreadsheet and see what I can do with it

[vaugh]

On 09/10/2021 at 16:21, GJW said:

Thanks Peter - do you have an Arthur J. O. Anderson on your list by chance - his 7th Batt RIRgt number was 8096. I have a reference that he served SIH.

Gerard

Hi Peter,

He is 7th (SIH) Btn R Ir Regt but not from the South Irish Horse. His number and existing records show him as R Ir Regt only. Soldiers Died also indicates no previous unit and I know from experience that as he does not have a 25,000 series number and no previous regiment that he was a late arrival with the R Ir Regt. By late I mean after the formation in Sept 1917, I can't be any more precise with his joining date but can state he was not previously SIH. The only reference to the SIh is with the 7th (SIH) Btn R Ir Regt.

You will see from my list linked here (http://southirishhorse.com/documents/7th_sih_dead.htm) that we divided the dead of the units into two distinct parts, one with those men of the SIH and those who joined the 7th (SIH) Btn R Ir Regt from units other than the SIH proper.

You possibly know this but just in case, he is shown as J O Anderson in Ireland's WWI casualties. Arthur John Orpen Anderson was born in Kilmoroney Queens County Ireland on the 16th February 1890 to parents Samuel Anderson a gamekeeper and Mary Lititia Orpen.

Hope the above helps.

[vaugh]

On 26/07/2021 at 10:07, Matlock1418 said:

That appears to be the case for E. Shiel [but W. Shields does seem to be there] - however, one wonders how they compiled their list ??

If just/predominantly off MIC, if he had not served o/s with them, then that would skew and probably explain his absence. ???

:-) M

Hi 'M',

Just to answer this, our list was first compiled in 2000/2001 from Soldiers Died, then the 1914 Star medal roll, next the 1914-15 Corps of Hussars medal roll. We later added to this from the section of Soldiers Died covering the 7th (SIH) Battalion Royal Irish Regiment. Next we trawled through the medal index cards at Kew using the alphabetical list we had at that point (2001-2005) complied .

Remember this was all pre Ancestry and PRO Kew web indexes. The WO 363/364 files were also consulted on microfilm at Kew, using our list, again before any searchable index was available.

[Matlock1418]

21 hours ago, vaugh said:

Just to answer this, our list was first compiled in 2000/2001 from Soldiers Died, then the 1914 Star medal roll, next the 1914-15 Corps of Hussars medal roll. We later added to this from the section of Soldiers Died covering the 7th (SIH) Battalion Royal Irish Regiment. Next we trawled through the medal index cards at Kew using the alphabetical list we had at that point (2001-2005) complied .

Remember this was all pre Ancestry and PRO Kew web indexes. The WO 363/364 files were also consulted on microfilm at Kew, using our list, again before any searchable index was available.

A great job well done considering the issues confronting you in the 'bad old days'. :-)

:-) M

[vaugh]

On 13/10/2021 at 19:25, Matlock1418 said:

A great job well done considering the issues confronting you in the 'bad old days'. :-)

:-) M

Thanks 'M' they were indeed 'bad' old days but for the most part very interesting. I even created my own Corps of Hussars 1914-1915 Star roll in printed form... Still use it now to check on entries.