Henry Livesey

[George Rayner]

8 hours ago, Matlock1418 said:

10 hours ago, Ken said:

No 1375 was the number he was given when he joined the Territorial Force in 1911 age14 years 4 months

If getting that age from the "Apparent age" in the Medical Inspection Report in 1911 - rather a different " 7 " and " 4 " = 17y 4m to me.

Yes that's what I tried to point out earlier

George

[charlie962]

14 hours ago, Ken said:

I can confirm that the number 23008 PTE H. LIVESEY L.N.LAN.R. Is stamped on the rim of my father’s medals 

thank you.

 

A further bit on that FindmyPast sick/wounded list of uncertain date that I mentioned earlier. It was one of those bits of paper that was used os scrap, torn in half and the reverse used for another purpose (in this case a progress report dated Dec 1917).

By looking at some of the other names on the list I am as sure as I can be that it is early May 1917. Frustratingly the paper is torn off at the part where it would have given us a place name, plus details of sickness.

We have  ...British Troops arrived at B...   The B could be Baghdad, Basra, Bombay or even BGH (British General Hospital) or even Back at.... My money is on BASRA as the main base before despatch to India (which would then mean Bombay). However I found nothing conclusive from other names on the list to say they all ened up in India although a number did. There were not enough surviving records.There seems to have been a fair spread between those sick and those wounded. Since I haven't seen Livesey on a Wounded Casualty List I am presuming he was sick.

 

image courtesy FindmyPast (one of those invaluable scraps that they have taken trouble to index)

 

 

[Ken]

23 hours ago, George Rayner said:

He did sign up for TF with a wrong age given then?

George

He signed up for the TF in 1911 when he was 14 yrs old  (born 1896 )

1 hour ago, charlie962 said:

thank you.

 

A further bit on that FindmyPast sick/wounded list of uncertain date that I mentioned earlier. It was one of those bits of paper that was used os scrap, torn in half and the reverse used for another purpose (in this case a progress report dated Dec 1917).

By looking at some of the other names on the list I am as sure as I can be that it is early May 1917. Frustratingly the paper is torn off at the part where it would have given us a place name, plus details of sickness.

We have  ...British Troops arrived at B...   The B could be Baghdad, Basra, Bombay or even BGH (British General Hospital) or even Back at.... My money is on BASRA as the main base before despatch to India (which would then mean Bombay). However I found nothing conclusive from other names on the list to say they all ened up in India although a number did. There were not enough surviving records.There seems to have been a fair spread between those sick and those wounded. Since I haven't seen Livesey on a Wounded Casualty List I am presuming he was sick.

 

image courtesy FindmyPast (one of those invaluable scraps that they have taken trouble to index)

 

 

Thankyou for the info

[charlie962]

On 24/07/2021 at 18:12, charlie962 said:

Starting in 1919, there is a hopital admission record on FindmyPast:

        28th General Hospital, admitted 1/2/19, transferred out 15/2/19 on British Transport Kursk, suffering from influenza.

         23008 H Livsey (sic) , 6th LNothLancs, Details, Age 23 (ie b 1896), 3 years service incl 2 with Field Force.

Ken-  Following up this bit, it would explain why he was not entitled to the GSM with clasp Kurdistan that a number of his comrades, who stayed on, were awarded. eg Whitwam and Corcoran who are lower down on the BWM/VM medal roll that you posted early on.

Link to HMT Kursk/Polonia here

and here

Edited 26 July , 2021 by charlie962

[Matlock1418]

7 hours ago, George Rayner said:

16 hours ago, Matlock1418 said:

18 hours ago, Ken said:

No 1375 was the number he was given when he joined the Territorial Force in 1911 age14 years 4 months

If getting that age from the "Apparent age" in the Medical Inspection Report in 1911 - rather a different " 7 " and " 4 " = 17y 4m to me.

Yes that's what I tried to point out earlier

Sorry, George - what was it you were trying to point out? [two options above!]

Are you comparing a 1901 [5y] and a 1911 [can't find/see it despite the kindly link provided] Census with a 1911 Attestation? - if so, I suppose it addresses 1375 and age 14 at attestation [declaring/apparently 17y 4m]

But ... Have we a firm link from 1375 to 23008?

:-) M

[George Rayner]

On 25/07/2021 at 07:10, George Rayner said:

On 23/07/2021 at 21:04, KLS said:

He was a TA soldier initially and then became full time soldier in the Loyal North Lancs 4th battalion. His record that I found on an ancestry site is very vague. On the 13/11/1911 it just says posted. On the 4/8/1912 it mentions he was at Kirkham camp till the 18/8/2012.

This is Henry Livesey who in November 1911 was declared to be 17 years and 4 months so birth in 1894. He also said he had no job, nor skill, and living in Redgate Cottages Higher Wheelton. The address matches the Census return. But the age has a two year difference.

 

On 25/07/2021 at 07:00, George Rayner said:

From the 1911 Census he was a paper Cutter in a Paper manufactory.

Census on Ancestry here

1911 England Census - Ancestry.co.uk

This  is what I posted Sunday. I read the attestation as a 17 year old...but could conceivably be 14 

George

[Ken]

George, thankyou for your interest.

 I read it as 14 years old. That would be my fathers correct age in 1911.

At that age I assume joining the T/F was like joining the cadets. More than likely his ‘mates’ would have joined as well. WW1 was 3 years away so I don’t think he would need to lie about his age 

[Matlock1418]

23 minutes ago, Ken said:

At that age I assume joining the T/F was like joining the cadets. More than likely his ‘mates’ would have joined as well. WW1 was 3 years away so I don’t think he would need to lie about his age

I don't think they took them that young into the TF [or did they have boy soldiers?] - so perhaps his age was 'massaged' [?].

I'm still not seeing a definitive link - 1375 to 23008 ???

:-) M

Edited 27 July , 2021 by Matlock1418

[charlie962]

Ken

Livesey 23008. The War Diary for 6th LNLancs for Jan/Feb 1917 is missing. Frustrating because in that period and in March (the Diary is available) they had some serious engagements in the advance on Baghdad including a very difficult crossing of the Tigris River where Capt O Reid won the VC and the Battalion took heavy casualties. It is highly probable that Livesey 23008 took part in these engagements before going sick in April/May. I said I had not seen him in any casualty lists but it is a period  where the lists don't seem to be easy to find. I can find some but not all. Perhaps the Times (available via local library?) is worth checking for March/April Lists for the LNLs ?

 

have you tried the museum?

 

this extract from their site:

MESOPOTAMIA

Tigris. In February 1916 the 6th Battalions of the East Lancashires, South Lancashires and Loyal North Lancashires, veterans of Gallipoli, were sent to Mesopotamia (modern Iraq) where an Anglo-Indian force was besieged by the Turks at Kut-al-Amara. The relief force made some progress up the River Tigris, capturing Turkish defensive lines at Hanna and Falahiya, but repeated and desperate assaults on very strong positions at Sanna-i-Yat failed with heavy casualties and Kut fell at the end of April. A Victoria Cross was awarded to the Reverend Addison, Chaplain to 6th Loyal North Lancashires.

Kut-al-Amara. A renewed British offensive astride the Tigris was launched in December 1916, and the three 6th Battalions were heavily involved in fierce fighting to clear successive Turkish positions, including the Dahra and Shumran Bends. At the latter, on 25th February 1917, a Victoria Cross was won by Private John Readitt of the South Lancashires.

Baghdad. The Lancashire battalions then earned immortal honour for their gallant assault crossing of the River Diyala, 7th-10th March, which led to the fall of Baghdad. Captain Oswald Reid of 6th Loyal North Lancashires earned a Victoria Cross on this occasion for the stand he made when isolated on the far bank for thirty hours.

Adhaim. The advance continued to the River Adhaim where, on 17th/18th April, all three battalions took part in a brilliantly-executed silent night attack, during which the Lancashire troops were ferried across the river and scaled cliffs to surprise the Turkish pickets and then routed the main enemy force. This success was followed by an action at Dahuba on the 24th April and a fierce fight at Band-i-Adhaim on the 30th, when the Turks were again defeated. The three 6th Battalions subsequently took part in many successful minor actions to clear the Jabal Hamrin, and remained in Mesopotamia until the Turkish surrender.

Edited 27 July , 2021 by charlie962

[George Rayner]

15 hours ago, Matlock1418 said:

I'm still not seeing a definitive link - 1375 to 23008 ???

The address is the same on TF attestation and 1911 Census for the family

George

[Matlock1418]

26 minutes ago, George Rayner said:

The address is the same on TF attestation and 1911 Census for the family

OK for 1375.

I'm afraid I am then struggling. :-/

What/which document(s) then link to 23008?

:-) M

Edited 28 July , 2021 by Matlock1418
typo

[George Rayner]

I hoped to find a link within the voters list but can't do that so also no link I can see either. 

KLS: Is it possible to show evidence of the link-or explain to us please?

George

[johnmelling1979]

Hello

Nice to see soldier from my local area crop up 

I did check my own website for Clayton le Woods and Whittle le Woods just in case

Perhaps you should contact Steve Williams or Stuart Clewlow who are well known in the Chorley area for their research

Cheers 

John 

 

 

[KLS]

7 minutes ago, johnmelling1979 said:

Hello

Nice to see soldier from my local area crop up 

I did check my own website for Clayton le Woods and Whittle le Woods just in case

Perhaps you should contact Steve Williams or Stuart Clewlow who are well known in the Chorley area for their research

Cheers 

John 

 

 

Hi John

Nice to hear from you. 
How can I get in touch with the above? 
 

[johnmelling1979]

15 minutes ago, KLS said:

Hi John

Nice to hear from you. 
How can I get in touch with the above? 
 

Steve william -

http://www.stevewilliamstalks.co.uk/

also Chorley in the Great War , If you can access facebook -

https://www.facebook.com/ChorleyWW1/?ref=page_internal

 

[KLS]

14 minutes ago, johnmelling1979 said:

Steve william -

http://www.stevewilliamstalks.co.uk/

also Chorley in the Great War , If you can access facebook -

https://www.facebook.com/ChorleyWW1/?ref=page_internal

 

Thank you John for this information😀

[Matlock1418]

7 hours ago, George Rayner said:

KLS: Is it possible to show evidence of the link-or explain to us please?

Trying to spare KLS a 'Ground Hog Day' moment ...

On 24/07/2021 at 23:24, KLS said:

On 24/07/2021 at 12:12, Matlock1418 said:

Would be great if you could post the photo [front and rear if possible] .......

My Uncle believes the 1375 was his TFA number but no evidence other than what we have to link the two numbers.

But if more can be found/offered by him then of course that would be great ...

I'm still hoping for a photo too - As KLS's other source, his uncle, is apparently not in the best of health hopefully it's not sounding like I am nagging!

Would be great to find a way to resolve matters for them.

:-) M

Edited 28 July , 2021 by Matlock1418

[Matlock1418]

2 hours ago, KLS said:

I attach my grandfather’s photo.

Thank you for that.  A great photo to have.  To me it looks like a very typical in late-training/post-training pre-deployment portrait.

And to me that certainly looks like a Loyal North Lancashire Regiment cap badge.

As for number?

Think LNL experts might possibly be able to work with that Felixstowe lead [?] - well I hope so, but I guess no promises.

:-) M

 

[KLS]

1 hour ago, Matlock1418 said:

Thank you for that.  A great photo to have.  To me it looks like a very typical in late-training/post-training pre-deployment portrait.

And to me that certainly looks like a Loyal North Lancashire Regiment cap badge.

As for number?

Think LNL experts might possibly be able to work with that Felixstowe lead [?] - well I hope so, but I guess no promises.

:-) M

 

Thank you for your input. Much appreciated.

[KLS]

On 27/07/2021 at 18:08, charlie962 said:

Ken

Livesey 23008. The War Diary for 6th LNLancs for Jan/Feb 1917 is missing. Frustrating because in that period and in March (the Diary is available) they had some serious engagements in the advance on Baghdad including a very difficult crossing of the Tigris River where Capt O Reid won the VC and the Battalion took heavy casualties. It is highly probable that Livesey 23008 took part in these engagements before going sick in April/May. I said I had not seen him in any casualty lists but it is a period  where the lists don't seem to be easy to find. I can find some but not all. Perhaps the Times (available via local library?) is worth checking for March/April Lists for the LNLs ?

 

have you tried the museum?

 

this extract from their site:

MESOPOTAMIA

Tigris. In February 1916 the 6th Battalions of the East Lancashires, South Lancashires and Loyal North Lancashires, veterans of Gallipoli, were sent to Mesopotamia (modern Iraq) where an Anglo-Indian force was besieged by the Turks at Kut-al-Amara. The relief force made some progress up the River Tigris, capturing Turkish defensive lines at Hanna and Falahiya, but repeated and desperate assaults on very strong positions at Sanna-i-Yat failed with heavy casualties and Kut fell at the end of April. A Victoria Cross was awarded to the Reverend Addison, Chaplain to 6th Loyal North Lancashires.

Kut-al-Amara. A renewed British offensive astride the Tigris was launched in December 1916, and the three 6th Battalions were heavily involved in fierce fighting to clear successive Turkish positions, including the Dahra and Shumran Bends. At the latter, on 25th February 1917, a Victoria Cross was won by Private John Readitt of the South Lancashires.

Baghdad. The Lancashire battalions then earned immortal honour for their gallant assault crossing of the River Diyala, 7th-10th March, which led to the fall of Baghdad. Captain Oswald Reid of 6th Loyal North Lancashires earned a Victoria Cross on this occasion for the stand he made when isolated on the far bank for thirty hours.

Adhaim. The advance continued to the River Adhaim where, on 17th/18th April, all three battalions took part in a brilliantly-executed silent night attack, during which the Lancashire troops were ferried across the river and scaled cliffs to surprise the Turkish pickets and then routed the main enemy force. This success was followed by an action at Dahuba on the 24th April and a fierce fight at Band-i-Adhaim on the 30th, when the Turks were again defeated. The three 6th Battalions subsequently took part in many successful minor actions to clear the Jabal Hamrin, and remained in Mesopotamia until the Turkish surrender.

Thank you Charlie for this information. You have been very helpful.

[charlie962]

KLS, Do please update this thread if you find new information. Charlie

[KLS]

9 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

KLS, Do please update this thread if you find new information. Charlie

Will do.