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Henry Livesey


KLS
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I have been trying to find out were my grandad Pte Henry Livesey no 23008 was posted to in the First WW. He was a TA soldier initially and then became full time soldier in the Loyal North Lancs 4th battalion. His record that I found on an ancestry site is very vague. On the 13/11/1911 it just says posted. On the 4/8/1912 it mentions he was at Kirkham camp till the 18/8/2012. The Captain & later on Major at the camp at the time is a R. Hindle. Captain Afrington is also mentioned. It also states he returned home 5/8/1914. He was discharged in Preston, Lancashire on the 24/8/1916 being medically unfit for further military service. I also have one army photograph of him with it stamped Felixstowe. 
I hope there is someone out there who can help me.

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7 minutes ago, KLS said:

I have been trying to find out were my grandad Pte Henry Livesey no 23008 was posted to in the First WW. He was a TA soldier initially and then became full time soldier in the Loyal North Lancs 4th battalion.

KLS

Welcome to GWF - I am sure there are many who would like to help you, and can, and that they will soon surface.

To help us start = Please, can you explain why you think this soldier is your grandfather?

There are many Henry Liveseys out there and we need to make sure we are chasing after the right one!

If you are not absolutely sure and/or if you wish = you can share some details such as date & place of birth, parents, siblings, place of residence, pre-war occupation etc. then that can also help us greatly.

Wishing you very good luck with your search.

:-) M

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1 minute ago, KLS said:

My Uncle has his war medals & the photo with his army number on the back. Henry was born in 1896 in Wheelton, Chorley Lancashire. His parents were James & Elizabeth Ann Livesey. He had a younger brother James Livesey who served as well and a younger sister called Mary Elizabeth. I do not know his pre war occupation. 

Thanks - That's a great start - Now we have that fixed as Pte Henry Livesey no 23008 we can really get going to try and help you.

Feel sure GWF will come up with some interesting stuff for you and your uncle.

:-) M

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Pte Henry Livesey no 23008 = The first thing we can see from the Medal Roll from which his BWM and VM MIC was compiled was that he was in the 6 N Lancs R

The MIC has no theatre of war or date of entry into one so generally taken as must have entered after 31/12/1915

The Long, Long Trail [LLT] for 6LNLR has:

6th (Service) Battalion
Formed at Preston in August 1914 as part of K1 and came under command of 38th Brigade in 13th (Western) Division. Moved initially to Tidworth and then Blackdown in February 1915.
17 June 1915 : sailed from Avonmouth, going to Gallipoli via Mudros. Landed at Cape Helles 6 July 1915. Returned to Mudros 31 July-1 August. Returned to Gallipoli at Anzac, 5 August.
January 1916: Evacuated from Gallipoli 21 December to Egypt via Mudros. Thence to Mesopotamia.

So that probably gives us a steer towards where to look next for his service.

:-) M

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2 hours ago, KLS said:

He was a TA soldier initially and then became full time soldier in the Loyal North Lancs 4th battalion. His record that I found on an ancestry site is very vague. On the 13/11/1911 it just says posted. On the 4/8/1912 it mentions he was at Kirkham camp till the 18/8/2012

See your next posting

1 hour ago, KLS said:

 

ACB923C2-892F-4A4B-BDBB-06AA2B87BB52.png

1375 - This appears to be 1/4th LNLR - A Territorial Force Attestation [not TA as that came after the war] from 1911 to 1913 - annual drill/training camps etc.

2 hours ago, KLS said:

It also states he returned home 5/8/1914

Home 4.8.14 means he served in the UK from that date [not that he went home!]

Shows Embodied 3/8/14 to 1/3/15 when Discharged in consequence of being medically unfit for further military service. [Being embodied means called up from TF for war service]

2 hours ago, KLS said:

He was discharged in Preston, Lancashire on the 24/8/1916

The later box of "[Certificate 511 ... ]" is unusual too.

I believe the 24/8/16 date was the date a Certificate 511 [whatever that was] was examined, not his discharge.  It rather looks like later there were questions being asked over his state of discharge. And then discharge belatedly formally approved.

1375 A Pension Index Card with claim Recd 29-12-16, has also for his discharge 1-3-15, and shows his claim was Rejected in red ink [but the date of that annotation is unclear as there is also another date of 2-7-21 in the same area - different ink though] - found at WFA/Fold3

The LLT have this of 4/LNLR:

1/4th Battalion
August 1914 : in Preston. Part of North Lancashire Brigade in West Lancashire Division. Moved on 22 August 1914 to Swindon and on in November to Sevenoaks.
April 1915 : Brigade transferred to Highland Division.
4 May 1915 : landed at Boulogne.
12 May 1915 : the formation became the 154th Brigade in 51st (Highland) Division.
7 January 1916 : transferred to 164th Brigade in 55th (West Lancashire) Division.

It would appear he could not have gone overseas with them as it looks like he was discharged 1-3-15 [and anyway that would have appeared on any medals awarded - which it appears not to]

A four digit number is typical of TF and these were usually later changed, c.1917 I think, to longer ones [but not really my field]

By 1916 the Military Service Act 1916 had brought conscription into play and it may be that he was perhaps later 'combed-out' for further military service as 23008 [medical standards had generally been lowered by then] - possibly with this different five digit number [?] - Or is the above really a different man?

I suspect you perhaps have your own queries, or is it just interpreting the record?

Have you personal details from an independent source(s) that connect him from 1375 to 23008 ???

From his medals 23008 seems OK - but I am currently struggling with 1375. ??? [following service careers not my main field!]

Rather surprised that other GWF members haven't pitched in by now - but perhaps later? - In hope!!!

:-) M

Edited by Matlock1418
typo
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Hi 

Thank you for your reply. Very interesting reading. 
I will ask my Uncle if he has any evidence to connect the two numbers. 
I have added more stuff that we have. 
Thanks again for your input.

5413F7A3-4804-486A-88A1-9C89D1BB1C66.png

87C7BD90-49C9-41C5-985A-9A76FA56C064.png

0F8F672B-ED26-4DE7-93B2-2F89FEFC6375.png

904AFDAC-A26F-4553-B9BA-58FD4B233149.png

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14 hours ago, KLS said:

My Uncle has his war medals & the photo with his army number on the back.

Would be great if you could post the photo [front and rear if possible] - there are many uniform and badge experts on GWF and they may be able to give an interesting interpretation for you.

:-) M

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19 hours ago, KLS said:

My Uncle has his war medals & the photo with his army number on the back. Henry was born in 1896 in Wheelton, Chorley Lancashire. His parents were James & Elizabeth Ann Livesey. He had a younger brother James Livesey who served as well and a younger sister called Mary Elizabeth. I do not know his pre war occupation. 
I do not know which battles he fought in & were. I would dearly  love to find out for my elderly Uncle & myself. Any help would be very much appreciated.

Starting in 1919, there is a hopital admission record on FindmyPast:

        28th General Hospital, admitted 1/2/19, transferred out 15/2/19 on British Transport Kursk, suffering from influenza.

         23008 H Livsey (sic) , 6th LNothLancs, Details, Age 23 (ie b 1896), 3 years service incl 2 with Field Force.

 

Looking at near numbers, I suspect he was "mobilized" c, 2nd Feb 1916, for that is about when the service number was issued. This would allow for him to have had some previous territorial service although the dates quoted above for the territorial man seem to be odd?

 

I suspect he will have seen his service in Mesopotamia although the 28th General Hospital was, I thought, in Salonika? Needs more work.

War Diaries for 6th LNL Regt are here at Discovery National Archives and free to download if you register. He will probably have joined them late 1916, perhaps in time for the advance on Baghdad ?

 

Charlie

Edited by charlie962
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There is also on Findmypast an undated Sick/Wounded List with his name on it. Perhaps May 1917? by looking at the other names for surviving records one might be able to date the list? It does not say if he was sick (greater probability) or he was wounded.

Edited by charlie962
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11 hours ago, Matlock1418 said:

Would be great if you could post the photo [front and rear if possible] - there are many uniform and badge experts on GWF and they may be able to give an interesting interpretation for you.

:-) M

My Uncle believes the 1375 was his TFA number but no evidence other than what we have to link the two numbers. He remembers his Auntie telling him he served in Mesopotamia. However his nephew who I met in 2019 seemed to think he served in India. Not sure what to make of that!

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On 23/07/2021 at 21:45, KLS said:

I do not know his pre war occupation.

From the 1911 Census he was a paper Cutter in a Paper manufactory.

Census on Ancestry here

1911 England Census - Ancestry.co.uk

George

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On 23/07/2021 at 21:04, KLS said:

He was a TA soldier initially and then became full time soldier in the Loyal North Lancs 4th battalion. His record that I found on an ancestry site is very vague. On the 13/11/1911 it just says posted. On the 4/8/1912 it mentions he was at Kirkham camp till the 18/8/2012.

This is Henry Livesey who in November 1911 was declared to be 17 years and 4 months so birth in 1894. He also said he had no job, nor skill, and living in Redgate Cottages Higher Wheelton. The address matches the Census return. But the age has a two year difference.

George

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On 23/07/2021 at 21:45, KLS said:

1896 in Wheelton, Chorley Lancashire

The TF attestation says St. Chad's. Is this correct for your relative please?

George

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11 hours ago, KLS said:

He remembers his Auntie telling him he served in Mesopotamia. However his nephew who I met in 2019 seemed to think he served in India. Not sure what to make of that!

India was the nearest base for sending troops to and from Mesopotamia and evacuating the sick and wounded. Also for leave. So he may well have had a spell in India. However there is probably a tendance to assume anything west East of Suez meant India !

Edited by charlie962
thanks Peter!
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Further thoughts on 23008 Henry Livesey as a result of looking at near service number surviving records:

Probably mobilised 2/2/16 and posted to Depot then maybe 11th Bn?, all in UK

Probably Posted to 6th Bn 6/6/16 and next day, 7/6/16, embarked Devonport

Probably landed 5/7/16 Basra, Mesopotamia

So look in the War Diary after this date for a group of reinforcements joining ? (edit- I suggest he was in one of the groups that joined the Bn at Sheik Saad 1st/2nd Aug 1916 ?)

 

We know he was on an early 1917 sick list as 6th Bn . This may have involved a spell in Basra or even Bombay. Sickness (heat disease etc) took a bigger toll of the troops in Mespot than enemy action.

We know he was still 6th Bn in Feb 1919. So reasonable to assume he was 6th Bn throughought although there could be detachment to other units! The Medal Roll supports the idea that he only served overseas with the 6th Bn.

 

Charlie

Edited by charlie962
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4 hours ago, George Rayner said:

The TF attestation says St. Chad's. Is this correct for your relative please?

George

Yes that is him.

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He did sign up for TF with a wrong age given then?

George

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Sorry didn't understand the humour?

George

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1)        I have been following up Henry Livesey 23008 because I assumed that was the number on the rim of the Victory Medal, following Matlock's request for confirmation from OP. Can you confirm, KLS, that this is the number on the rim of his two medals please ?

 

2) There are still some anomolies on dates of claims for 1375 Livesey and I am leaving it to you others to make sense of this. Whilst discharge on 1/3/15 from TF leaves plenty of scope for re-enlistment early 1916 (under relaxed criteria as already noted) I am puzzled by the Pension claim dates and refs on his TF file dated 1916.

 

Charlie

 

 

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6 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

1)        I have been following up Henry Livesey 23008 because I assumed that was the number on the rim of the Victory Medal, following Matlock's request for confirmation from OP. Can you confirm, KLS, that this is the number on the rim of his two medals please ?

 

2) There are still some anomolies on dates of claims for 1375 Livesey and I am leaving it to you others to make sense of this. Whilst discharge on 1/3/15 from TF leaves plenty of scope for re-enlistment early 1916 (under relaxed criteria as already noted) I am puzzled by the Pension claim dates and refs on his TF file dated 1916.

 

Charlie

 

 

My Uncle has his medals so I would need to ask him. I just have screenshots.

Thank you for your contribution.

 

 

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2 hours ago, KLS said:

My Uncle has his medals so I would need to ask him.

P.S. Don't forget to try and get the photo too.

:-) M

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2 minutes ago, KLS said:

He’s undoing Chemo atm

Sorry to hear that he needs that - hope it goes well.

:-) M

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4 hours ago, charlie962 said:

1)        I have been following up Henry Livesey 23008 because I assumed that was the number on the rim of the Victory Medal, following Matlock's request for confirmation from OP. Can you confirm, KLS, that this is the number on the rim of his two medals please ?

 

2) There are still some anomolies on dates of claims for 1375 Livesey and I am leaving it to you others to make sense of this. Whilst discharge on 1/3/15 from TF leaves plenty of scope for re-enlistment early 1916 (under relaxed criteria as already noted) I am puzzled by the Pension claim dates and refs on his TF file dated 1916.

 

Charlie

 

 

No 1375 was the number he was given when he joined the Territorial Force in 1911 age14 years 4 months 

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I can confirm that the number 23008 PTE H. LIVESEY L.N.LAN.R. Is stamped on the rim of my father’s medals 

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2 hours ago, Ken said:

No 1375 was the number he was given when he joined the Territorial Force in 1911 age14 years 4 months

If getting that age from the "Apparent age" in the Medical Inspection Report in 1911 - rather a different " 7 " and " 4 " = 17y 4m to me.

:-) M

32 minutes ago, Ken said:

I can confirm that the number 23008 PTE H. LIVESEY L.N.LAN.R. Is stamped on the rim

Glad that is confirmed.

:-M

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