Location of St Elizabeth Orphanage, Ypres- Dressing station February 1915?

[David_Blanchard]

I am trying to find the location of St Elizabeth or Elisabeth Orphanage in Ypres in 1915. This became a 'branch hospital' in February 1915 and was set up by the 84 Field Ambulance as a dressing station which could accommodate 140 patients- (from WD of 84 FA.). Another medical facility was set up at the same time, the Hospice Belle, on the Lille Road, also operated by the 84 FA- so I suspect that the St Elizabeth Orphanage was nearby. 

 

Any help appreciated.

 

 

David 

 

 

[ss002d6252]

Is this it at Poperinghe

https://www.guise.me.uk/articles/fau/images/chateauelisabeth750.jpg
Craig

[ss002d6252]

 

Quote

 

Poperinghe New Military Cemetery is located 10.5 Kms west of Ieper town centre, in the town of Poperinge itself. From Ieper, Poperinge is reached via the N308. From Ieper town centre the Poperingseweg (N308), is reached via Elverdingsestraat then directly over two small roundabouts in the J. Capronstraat. The Poperingseweg is a continuation of the J. Capronstraat and begins after a prominent railway level crossing. On reaching the town of Poperinge, the left hand turning from the N308 leads onto the R33 Poperinge ring road. 1 Km along the N33 lies the right hand turning onto Deken De Bolan. The cemetery is located 100 metres from the ring road level with Onze Vrouwedreef on the right hand side of the road.

The New Military Cemetery was established by the French at the end of April 1915 and in June 1915 it was taken over by the British and is located 200 yards down the road opposite the site of the old Chateau Elizabeth. Between July 1915 and March 1916, eight Belgians, all serving in the 7th Belgian Field Artillery Regiment were buried here.

 

Craig

[David_Blanchard]

Craig,

 

Thanks for your reply, but pretty sure the Saint Elizabeth Orphanage was in Ypres. From ADMS 28 Division WD. 

Edited 23 July , 2021 by David_Blanchard

[LDT006]

David,

there was an orphanage for girls at the "Ecole Ste-Elisabeth" in the "rue Notre Dame". I am not 100% sure but think that rue Notre Dame is now the Onze-Lieve-Vrouwestraat. Also very interesting is that the street which extends to the east is the "Sint-Elisabethstraat", a side street of the rue de Lille (Rijselstraat).

I can't find the exact location for the orphanage but it must have been in this area.

Hope this helps,

Luc.

[Neil Mackenzie]

On 23/07/2021 at 10:47, David_Blanchard said:

Another medical facility was set up at the same time, the Hospice Belle, on the Lille Road, also operated by the 84 FA- so I suspect that the St Elizabeth Orphanage was nearby. 

I think you are right David. The Hospice Belle was at the northern end of the Rijselstraat and the Hospice St Jean was on or just off that road down near the Lille Gate. So presumably the orphanage was between the 2 as indicated on Luc's map.

[Bob Davies]

Hi David and all, I hope this map helps.  Just south or rue de Tuiles off the rue de Lille Regards, Bob. https://uurl.kbr.be/1040444

[Aurel Sercu]

In the Sint-Elisabethstraat there was (before the war) an orphanage for girls (founded end of 15th century) ("Wezenschool").

Aurel

[David_Blanchard]

Excellent guys thanks for your help. I guess that this establishment was only used for medical care for a couple of months, when the dressing stations in the centre of Ypres were abandoned due to the increased bombardment of Ypres during the 2nd battle in April 1915.

Once the Hospice Belle, St Jean and the orphanage were established by the 84 Field Ambulance, I think  Ramparts cemetery was utilised for men who died of wounds. One man- Lieutenant RE White was wounded and died on 5 March 1915 and brought to St Jean and later buried at Ramparts. (Any other evidence to support this would be appreciated) 
 

See war diary of Northumbrian RE- 28 Division- first two lines. 

David 

Edited 25 July , 2021 by David_Blanchard

[David_Blanchard]

I think Rue des Pauves Filles (1853 map) was renamed Sint Elizabethstrasse and if we look at the map from 1853 there was a school for orphans there so I think this must be where 84 FA medical facility was. 

Edited 1 February , 2022 by David_Blanchard

[LDT006]

14 hours ago, Bob Davies said:

I hope this map helps.

Thanks, I lost my links due to a PC mishap and am glad to have it back.

David,

1 hour ago, David_Blanchard said:

there was a school for orphans there

To be more precise: it was for orphan girls (Orphelines) numbered 174 on the map, now still a school "Het Vlot" at Sint-Elisabethstraat 6. The school for orphan boys (Orphelins) was a bit to the south in the Rue du Lombard.

Geoffrey Winthrop Young from The Friends’ Ambulance Unit worked together with the sisters of the school for the civilian relief in Ypres and transfer to the Poperinge area. Might be of interest to you, there is a large article in Dutch. A shorter one in English:

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/52ec/c947b12dd7d4bb81d1ff8c0510dee5b3f53a.pdf 

[Bob Davies]

1 hour ago, LDT006 said:

Thanks, I lost my links due to a PC mishap and am glad to have it back

I found the map /link on McMaster university. Thank you Luc for your help here, especially the precise translation of orphelines/lins. I presume rue de pauvre filles means 'poor girls street'? Also thanks for the link to the very interesting article, "the friends ambulance unit". That is quite an eye opener. Regards, Bob. https://digitalarchive.mcmaster.ca/node/22

Edited 25 July , 2021 by Bob Davies

[Bob Davies]

2 hours ago, LDT006 said:

Thanks, I lost my links due to a PC mishap and am glad to have it back.

Another somewhat connected link is here Luc, @David_Blanchardet al. It is a site containing hundreds if not thousands of postcards, seemingly in the Ypres area. They span a time from prior to WW1 to almost now. I believe it is written in Dutch but there is a search option on it so you can narrow things down a bit. I may be wrong but it might be a collection of forum member @sabine72 ? If it is, then thank you Sabine. Regards, Bob.

Edited 25 July , 2021 by Bob Davies

[LDT006]

56 minutes ago, Bob Davies said:

I found the map /link on McMaster university. Thank you Luc for your help here, especially the precise translation of orphelines/lins. I presume rue de pauvre filles means 'poor girls street'?

Yes, Rue des pauvres Filles translates as Poor girls street, renamed later to Sint-Elisabethstraat. The article of The Friends’ Ambulance Unit describes the civil situation in Ypres very well. This is just a short one, there are links to books and other publications which must be more detailed. The site which holds the map that you linked to has a lot of maps and other interesting items. There is an English language setting but don't know how good it is: https://www.kbr.be/en/

49 minutes ago, Bob Davies said:

Another somewhat connected link is here

Hmm, there is no link?

Luc.

[Aurel Sercu]

Just to say that I went through my books with photos of pre-war Ypres, but none of the Girls' Orphanage school in the Rue des Pauvres Filles (now Sint-Elisabethstraat).

Aurel

 

[David_Blanchard]

Strange- it seems have been a relatively large establishment- 140 beds- from WD of 84 Field Ambulance- 12 February 1915.

David 

[Bob Davies]

1 hour ago, LDT006 said:

Hmm, there is no link?

I am having trouble posting so here goes again ;-) https://westhoekverbeeldt.be/ontdek/?mode=gallery&switch=1&view=horizontal&sort=random{1625676603888} asc

[LDT006]

18 minutes ago, David_Blanchard said:

Strange- it seems have been a relatively large establishment- 140 beds- from WD of 84 Field Ambulance- 12 February 1915.

David,

there were 2 schools at that location, 140 beds seems possible. This location was used for treatment of civilians by the sisters of the convent and The Friends’ Ambulance Unit, the patients were evacuated to Poperinge and other locations in February 1915. The 84th Field Ambulance took it over and installed a dressing station there when it became vacant.

Bob,

just to late, after some thinking, I realized that this was probably the website you had in mind. It has a photo of the boys orphanage:

https://westhoekverbeeldt.be/ontdek/detail/f1dadc54-bbc5-11e3-b331-2787878c0c39

But, like Aurel, I can't find anything on the girls one.

Luc.

 

 

[Bob Davies]

51 minutes ago, David_Blanchard said:

Strange- it seems have been a relatively large establishment- 140 beds- from WD of 84 Field Ambulance- 12 February 1915.

Looking at the map David, I would say the the school for orphan boys, is or was 40 meters by 30 meters base area. The girls school is 50  by 20 meters, so add a few floors, one at least and then a cellar in both schools. That would give you the room. Roughly taken from the scale at the bottom of the map and my pen and thumb, so not deadly accurate but close enough. Luc, yes that is the one, I just added the link on my post.

Edited 25 July , 2021 by Bob Davies

[David_Blanchard]

Sorry, I meant it seems to have been a relatively large place so you would have thought there would have been photographs.

 

David 

[Bob Davies]

46 minutes ago, David_Blanchard said:

Sorry, I meant it seems to have been a relatively large place so you would have thought there would have been photographs.

My apologies David :-) Now that we are aware of these locations, with some luck one might turn up. I presume that the orphanages would have been reduced to rubble over the period of the war? Regards, Bob.

[David_Blanchard]

Also wondering if the boy’s orphanage on Rue de Lombard was used as a a billet for the Northumbrian RE- transcribed war diary entry by @seaforths for 11 February 1915 when a shell burst in the doorway and killed a number of the sappers inside(all these men are now buried in Ramparts Cemetery)

 

David 

[brianmorris547]

23 hours ago, David_Blanchard said:

 

Once the Hospice Belle, St Jean and the orphanage were established by the 84 Field Ambulance, I think  Ramparts cemetery was utilised for men who died of wounds. One man- Lieutenant RE White was wounded and died on 5 March 1915 and brought to St Jean and later buried at Ramparts. (Any other evidence to support this would be appreciated) 
 

 

David 

David

I had a look at the March 1915 WD for 28 Div A&QMG. (Confusing because the WD is to be found under WO 95/2269/2 Commander Royal Artillery and the CRA WD is to be found under WO 95/2269/1 A&QMG)

Lt White is named and following that other Officers are named e.g. 07/03 Capt Watson KOYLI k 13 Bde, 10/03 Lt Vance Ches k 15 Bde, Lt Moseley 4 Beds k, 15/03 Lt Mc ? RAMC, 17/03 Lt Berrill ? North Fus k 9 Bde and Capt Hodgson R Fus k 9 Bde.

I could not see any mention of these Officers in the WDs of the Units shown. The WD of 1 Northumberland Fusiliers, 9 IB, 3 Div does have lists of casualties appended to each month and I attach this page (Courtesy TNA WO 95/1430 / Ancestry p 176/736) which shows that the only Officer casualty in March was Lt M Belcham ? (D of w 19/03) - I can not find him on SDGW or CWGC.

On the same page are two men who died of wounds. 7895 Mole J d of w 16/03. RSE shows Joseph Mole d of w 07/03 at 84 Field Ambulance and CWGC shows J Mole died 07/03 buried in Ramparts Cem Lille Gate. I could not find the other d of w shown on the page i.e. 9314 Naismith ?, A and 3847 Richardson J (on another page).

Brian

 

Edited 26 July , 2021 by brianmorris547
additional info

[Aurel Sercu]

St Elisabeth girls' orphanage extreme right. (Aerial photo 1916)

Aurel

 

[Bob Davies]

22 hours ago, David_Blanchard said:

it seems to have been a relatively large place so you would have thought there would have been photographs.

A view from Marche au Beurre looking SSE or there abouts, shows a tower belonging to the girls orphan school. Them map ties up  with the picture as far as I can tell. The description of the photo reads thus (using google translate); "The old butter market was located in the Boomgaardstraat. Here is a quiet scene in the street at the beginning of the twentieth century. On the left are two women in the doorway of Herberg de Slagter and in the middle you can see the tower of the former orphans' school, now the school for special primary education." So we have some of it! https://westhoekverbeeldt.be/ontdek/detail/f1d72276-bbc5-11e3-879f-c397f38a5ab0/media/6f3bf205-0500-c3ef-f98b-c7b34f1047a2?mode=detail&view=horizontal&q=Wezenschool&rows=1&page=8