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Remembered Today:

Trying to find which units that 3 brothers served In


Robert Wimpenny

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Would appreciate a little help here If possible ?, we are looking at some very distant family members who we assume (unless any disabillity or essential war work) that they must have served in the war ?

The 3 brothers are the sons of Henry and Sarah Cockcroft and were living In Mytholmroyd, west yorkshire,

George  c1889 – 7th Aug 1937

Samuel 20th Sept 1890 – 10th Nov 1970

Allen 9th Feb 1893 – 17th Nov 1969

 

We would like to know the units they served in and if possible dates of enlistment and discharge.

we have no photos or anything else that would give us any Ideas, a search of Ancestry (the free version) only threw up a possible record of Allen Cockcroft serving in a Welsh regiment ?, Cockcroft (and numerous variations of spelling) appears to be a very common name so not sure if this is correct person.

 

1911 census lists them as cotton weaver, boot dealer shop assistant and a butcher,

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George served with the North Staffs 31765 and 17th Notts & Derby 71491 discharged 11th Oct 1918. Attested 10.2.16. SWB sickness

Edited by EDWARD1
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At WFA/Fold3 there is a pension Index card for George Albert COCKCROFT, Notts & Derby 3rd 71491 and 3/31765 [no unit]

Discharged 11.10.18

His address is given as Brinh Fop Farm, Mytholmroyd, Yorks [something like - Could that be Brink Top Farm? - I think this latter is probably more likely]

He was initially awarded 11/- pw to 14.1.19 [11/- seems equivalent of 40% disability in 1918]

:-) M

Edit; There is also a Pension Ledger Index Card for COCKCROFT 71491 - as George Arthur - Address Brink Top Farm, Mytholmroyd.  A 13/7/20 note on the reverse reads: No Grounds

Edited by Matlock1418
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At WFA/Fold3 there is a Pension Index card  Pension Ledger Index Card for Samuel COCKCROFT, West Riding Regt, 306860

Has a former regtl. no. of 4425

Discharged 26.4.19

His address is given as Bank Top Farm, Mytholmroyd [Could that be Brink Top Farm? - like George above] and also as 8 Chapel Lane, Bingly

:-) M

Edit: was assessed at 40% disability and granted 16/- pw [at least until 4/12/22]

Edited by Matlock1418
typo and edit
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Maybe George had an appeal rejected 

Todmorden & District News 09 June 1916

although dates with Edward 1 don't fit. This is George A Cockcroft of Hebden Bridge

George

Edit: this family lives at 6, Barker Street, George Arthur is 18 and a weaver. Mrs Cockcroft is a widow. Info taken from newspaper Todmorden & District News 07 July 1916

George

Edited by George Rayner
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21 minutes ago, George Rayner said:

Robert you appear to be correct with the Welsh!

MIC: COCKCROFT, Allen

Montgomeryshire Yeomanry, 3388 and The Royal Welsh (Welch) Fusilier 54395 = BWM & VM

:-) M

Edit: I note PoW in newspaper. 

ICRC records as COCKCROFT 54395 https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/2865319/3/2 and https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/1436944/3/2

Not looked in full detail, so very briefly = C Coy, 10 RWF, Cpl. Captured Serre, 14-11-16. NoK at Brink Top Farm, Mytholmroyd.  DoB given as 9.2.87, Brearley

Edited by Matlock1418
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Card at the International Committee of the Red Cross, (filed under Cockroft), shows he was with "C" Company 10th "Royal Fusiliers", (rather then Royal Welsh Fusiliers on his MiC), when he was captured on the 14th November 1916. https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/2865319/3/2/

He was also a Corporal, although the MiC shows highest rank as Private. The first report from the Germans does actually show he was Royal Welsh Fusiliers and that he was captured at Serre. There is no reference to him being wounded but he was in the Prison Hospital at Munster. Date of birth however is shown as the 9th February 1887. He was resident Mytholmroyd. His next of kin is his mother, of Brinktop Farm, Mytholmroyd, Yorkshire. (PA9282) https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Search/#/3/2/224/2865319/British and Commonwealth/Military/Cockcroft

PA9744 received by the ICRC from the Germans on the 21st April 1917 shows him with the Royal Fusiliers, captured Serre 14th November 1916 and arrived at the camp from Cambrai. Date of birth shown as 9th February 1894.

There is a second card that references him as being in the Royal Welsh Fusiliers and adds additional reports received from the Germans. The first of these (PA 9862) lists his condition as "Frost t.d. Fussen" which totally escapes my schoolboy German https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/1436944/3/2/

And a third card with yet another report that sits between the reports on the other two cards! Looks like he was actually in hospital at Cambrai and Munster was being referenced earlier as an admin centre rather than a physical location. Report was also received 21st April 1917. https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/5234436/3/2/

Hope most of that makes sense, (and also that it helps:) )

Cheers
Peter

Edited by PRC
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Overwhelmed with the speed and depth of research posted, think the date of birth of 1887 is definatly a mistake as 1911 census gives them as 22, 20 and 18.

Barker St connection not our man going by age.

Had no idea that one of them was a prisoner of war !

wondered if the condition was frostbite but cannot find a translation that fits yet.

Brink Top was where the family lived c1901 to 1924 - did not no that it was a farm though ! further research for myself.

The Welsh connection Is Interesting In that the only wedding I could find for Allen was a Welsh one to a Alice Warren in 1926 and I had dissmissed as unlikely.

now it is possible that it could be correct, he was living with Alice Cockcroft in Mytholmroyd in 1939. and we were unable to find any local marriages

never heard of Serre, appears to part of the Somme battle will read further for background

Thank you so much for far more than we hoped we would learn about the brothers

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Yes you must have the right man.

Apart from one other (born 1854), he is the only Allen Cockroft ever born, married  or died in England or Wales between 1837 and 1993.

(Born & married as Cockroft, died as Cockcroft).

Edited by Dai Bach y Sowldiwr
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34 minutes ago, Robert Wimpenny said:

never heard of Serre, appears to part of the Somme battle will read further for background

Hopefully you are already aware that war diaries for units serving in France & Flanders can currently be downloaded for free from the National Archive.

(And if you weren't aware, you do need to sign in with your account, but if you don't have one, even that can be set up as part of placing your first order. Just click on "sign in" and follow the instructions - no financial details required).

The War Diary for the 10th Battalion Royal Welsh Fusiliers covering September 1915 to February 1918 can be found here:-https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7352096

The Battalion was part of the 76th Infantry Brigade, of the 3rd Division. Their attack at Serre was part of the wider of The Battle of the Ancre, (13th - 18th November 1918).

The Attack of 13th November 1916

All hopes of a decisive breakthrough on the Somme had been dashed by the carnage wrought by German machine gun and artillery fire on 1st July 1916. It took a further 140 days of bitter fighting to drive the Germans off the ridge between the rivers Ancre and Somme. It was only on 13th November that a renewed attack was attempted on the left of the battle front against the fortified villages of St. Pierre Divion, Beaucourt, Beaumont Hamel and Serre.

The situation in front of Serre was even less auspicious for the British than it had been before the attack of 1st July. The ground below the village was now a sea of deep, cloying mud overlayed with more sophisticated and more densely concentrated barbed wire entanglements. At 5am on 13th November, shrouded in fog, the leading battalions of 76th Brigade (3rd Division) moved into No Man's Land, crossing the same ground over which the men of 94th Brigade had fallen over 4½ months earlier. History was to repeat itself. On the left of the Brigade front, few of the 2nd Suffolks were able to penetrate the German wire. Behind them, the 8th King's Own were caught in No Man's Land by a devastating artillery barrage. On the right, men of the 10th Royal Welch Fusiliers and 1st Gordon Highlanders fought their way as far as the German 4th Line but were eventually overwhelmed. As the Battle of the Somme drew to a close with the capture of St. Pierre Divion, Beaucourt and Beaumont Hamel, Serre remained in German hands.

http://www.pals.org.uk/serre.htm

The 2nd Battalion, Suffolk Regiment, were in the same Brigade.

From Page 187 “The History of the Suffolk Regiment 1914-1927” by Lieutenant-Colonel C.C.R.Murphy

An attack was known to be impending, but the bad weather threatened to preclude the possibility of operations on a large scale. However, preparations continued, and on November 6 the battalion was sent into the trenches. At the last moment attack orders were cancelled, the same thing happened again on the 10th, the postponement in both cases being due to the weather. Finally, on the 12th a beginning was made. The whole trench area was waterlogged and in such a deplorable state that the battalion, abandoning the communication trenches entirely, moved into its assembly positions across the open, luckily unmolested.

At 5 a.m. on November 13 the first wave floundered forward into No Man’s Land – in reality, a sea of mud in which movement was barely possible. Three-quarters of an hour later the attack began. The mist which hung about the low ground thickened as the smoke of the barrage increased, making direction extremely difficult to maintain. Within a very short time all the officers in the leading companies had fallen, and owing to lack of leaders no real progress was made. In spite of the atrocious weather conditions prevailing, portions of the leading Suffolk companies actually reached the German second line. But all was in vain, and the battalion having been reorganised in its original front line, remained there for the rest of the day, marching back to Courcelles the next morning. The casualties numbered 272

Cheers,
Peter

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Samuel seems to have been quite an awkward charracter, he refused to go on several occasions and had to be arrested and forced to go. From March 31st 1916, courtesy of the British Newspaper Archive.

 

Snap 2021-07-23 at 14.27.16.png

 

Snap 2021-07-23 at 14.29.42.png

Edited by sadbrewer
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Have just ordered the war diary, thanks for the link and the Information re the battle,

yes the various spellings have caused a few Issues while researching the family - only recently established the correct spelling

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Samuel certainly made himself well known in the area after that newspaper article, thanks for sharing this piece (and enlarging the clip as was quite difficult to read)

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7 hours ago, Robert Wimpenny said:

We would like to know the units they served in and if possible dates of enlistment and discharge.

One approach that sometimes pays dividends is looking for surviving records of men with nearby service numbers to see if any patterns emerge that could apply to the man you are interested in.

So looking at Allen Cockcroft 3388 Montgomeryshire Yeomanry then 54395 The Royal Welsh Fusiliers:-

54390 James Butterworth was previously 1856 Welsh Horse and subsequently 326316 Royal Engineers. At some point he was also 142503 Royal Garrison Artillery. Victory and British War Medal only (VM & BWM), so didn’t enter a Theatre of War unto on or after the 1st January 1916.

54391 Morgan Martin was previously 1584 Welsh Horse. VM & BWM only (MiC). Died of Wounds 26th November 1917 with the 19th Battalion. (Soldiers Died in the Great War \ SDGW).

54392 Jenkin Lloyd was previously 1433 Welsh Horse. VM & BWM only (MiC). Died of Wounds 23rd November 1917 with the 19th Battalion. (SDGW).

54393 No MiC match or surviving service records on FindMyPast.

54394 Ernest Chorlton was previously 3309 Montgomeryshire Yeomanry. VM & BWM only (MiC). “Died” 18th May 1917 with the 10th Battalion. (SDGW). Buried at Hamburg so probably a German Prisoner of War. (CWGC). Died in the Prison Hospital at Munster, having previously served with D Company. (ICRC) https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/984999/3/2/

54396 Reginald O Cambridge was previously 3571 Montgomeryshire Yeomanry. MiC shows he also received the Silver War Badge. VM & BWM only  Has surviving service records. Was serving initially with the 3/1st Montgomeryshire Yeomanry having enlisted on the 19th April 1916. Sent out as part of a general draft to France, leaving from Southampton on the 16th September 1916 and landing at Rouen on the 17th. Marched into 5 Infantry Base Depot at Rouen. On the 24th he was transferred to the 4th Reserve Battalion of the Royal Welsh Fusiliers and then immediately posted to the 10th Battalion if the same Regiment. He left the Depot on the 25th and joined up with his unit in the field on the 26th. He was recorded as missing on the 13th November 1916. A prisoner of war, he appears to have been repatriated in January 1918, and discharged as no longer physically fit for war service on the 28th February 1918. ICRC card has him serving with ‘D’ Company when captured. His wounds on capture are recorded as “Erfrowena Fusse”. https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/3074356/3/2/

There is an interesting report and accompanying internal memo in Reginalds’ service records – a letter from the Records Office to his father.

“I am directed to inform you that it has been reported by the representative of the Netherland Delegation at Berlin that at the time of his inspection of the working camp for Prisoners of War at Uchtermoor (the parent of which is Hameln), on 26th September 1917, your son had no toes on his left foot,having had them frozen off in the trenches, and could only do work at which he could sit down. He was suffering from nervous pains in the leg. The Commandant stated that he had given instructions that your son should only work when he felt well enough.”

54397 David S Evans was previously 3471 Montgomeryshire Yeomanry. VM & BWM only (MiC).

54398 Robert Evans was previously 3254 Montgomeryshire Yeomanry. VM & BWM only (MiC). Killed in Action 13th November 1916 with the 10th Battalion. (SDGW). Has no known grave and is remembered on the Thiepval Memorial. (CWGC).

54399 John W. Forster was previously 3556 Montgomeryshire Yeomanry. VM & BWM only (MiC). John Wilfred Foster “Died” 9th April 1917 serving with the 10th Battalion. (SDGW). He is buried Cologne Southern Cemetery so almost certainly a German Prisoner of War. (CWGC). Originally posted missing 13th November 1916. Was serving with ‘C’ Company. (ICRC) https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/341004/3/2/

54400 George Harris was previously 3221 Montgomeryshire Yeomanry. VM & BWM only (MiC). Prisoner of War, captured Serre 14th November 1916 serving with ‘D’ Company. https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/1306950/3/2/

Hope that is of interest.

Peter

Edited by PRC
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Hi Peter, yes this is of great Interest, have also just downloaded a 2 part war diary not had time to look at it yet,

I have just emailed a friend in Germany to try and get an accurate translation of "Frost t.d. Fussen" I didn't get far trying to translate it myself using google. my friend works shifts so not sure when she will get back to me.

 

Thanks

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1 hour ago, Robert Wimpenny said:

Frost t.d. Fussen

Sorry to barge in, but just looking at the thread and P o W information, if the t. was actually an i. then it would read Frost i.d. Fussen, = cold feet identified, possibly referring to what we know as “trench foot”

Hope your German friend will clear it up.

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Samuel Cockcroft 4425 then 306860 West Riding Regiment. Known to have been taken from Todmorden Court towards the end of March 1916, (either 24th or 31st as they were the Saturdays), for military service.

Near Service numbers search:-

306850 Edward H. Mitchell. VM & BWM only, plus Silver War Badge (SWB). (MiC) Enlisted 24th March 1916. Discharged 23rd November 1918 as a result of wounds. Had seen service overseas. (SWB Roll).

306851 Willie Lumb. VM & BWM only. (MiC). KiA 3rd May 1917 serving with the 2/7th Battalion. (SDGW). Remembered on the Arras Memorial. (CWGC).

306852 James E. Pilling. VM & BWM only, plus Silver War Badge (SWB). (MiC) Undated report on FMP of him being wounded (slight) while with the 2/7th Battalion.

306853 No MiC match. No service records on FindMyPast.

306854 Wright Greenwood. VM & BWM only, plus Silver War Badge (SWB). (MiC) Surviving Discharge records from the 2/7th Battalion effective 7th March 1918. Conscripted 24th March 1916 and posted to the 2/7th Battalion the next day. Original service number 4415. Embarked Southampton 15th January 1917, landed Le Havre 16th January 1917. Had influenza then Phthisis then severe Bronchitis over the late summer of 1917. Medically repatriated to the UK 6th October 1917. Discharged with Pulmonary Tuberculosis. He died post discharge on the 8th August 1919. (Possibly he is a missed commemoration)

306855 Albert Hill. VM & BWM only. (MiC) Admitted 28th September 1918 to No.34 Casualty Clearing Station having been Gassed (Mustard). He was serving then with the 5th Battalion. (FMP)

306856 Herbert Speak. VM & BWM only. (MiC) KiA 20th November 1917 serving with the 2/7th Battalion. Resident Mytholmroyd, enlisted Halifax. (SDGW).

306857 John Gledhill.  VM & BWM only. (MiC)

306858 Thomas Barker. VM & BWM only, plus Silver War Badge (SWB). (MiC) Enlisted 24th March 1916. Discharged 31st October 1917 from the 7th Battalion. Had seen overseas service. (SWB Roll).

306859 Frank Wormald, subsequently 570966 Labour Corps. VM & BWM only. (MiC) Undated Casualty List, GSW while serving with 2/7th Battalion.

306861 Fred Crowther. Shown on MiC as 2nd Battalion. Awarded MM – Gazetted 13/03/18 while serving with 17th Battalion in France. Received SWB. Enlisted 25th March 1916. Discharged 1st January 1919 as a result of wounds. Saw service overseas,

306862 No MiC match. No service records on FindMyPast.

306863 Syris (or Sykes) Walker. VM & BWM only. (MiC)

306864 No MiC match. No service records on FindMyPast.

306865 No MiC match. No service records on FindMyPast.

306866 Ronald Cowgill. VM & BWM only. (MiC)

306867 Chrispin Demaine. VM & BWM only, plus SWB. (MiC). Enlisted 1st March 1916, discharged 16th May 1919 as a result of wounds. (SWB Roll).  

306868 Fred Nixon. VM & BWM only. (MiC). Died of Wounds 20th December 1917 serving with the 2/7th Battalion. Enlisted Keighley, Yorkshire. (SDGW).

306869 Walter Clarke, subsequently York and Lancaster Regiment 56507. VM & BWM only. (MiC). Surviving Service records. Attested 17th February 1916. Mobilised 25th March 1916, posted to 2/7th Battalion on the 27th March 1916. Landed France 12th January 1917. Wounded and medically repatriated April 1917.

306870 No MiC match. Albert Beaumont Killed in Action 3rd May 1917 serving with the 2/7th Battalion in France & Flanders. Enlisted Stainland, Yorkshire. (SDGW). Remembered on the Arras Memorial (CWGC).

Our parent site, the Long, Long Trail, has this for the 2/7th Battalion.

Formed at Milnsbridge in September 1914 as a home service (“second line”) unit. Moved to Derbyshire.
1 March 1915 : came under orders of 186th Brigade in 62nd (2nd West Riding) Division.
Moved to Thoresby Park (Ollerton) in May 1915.
Moved in October 1915 to Retford, November 1915 to Newcastle,
January 1916 to Salisbury Plain, June 1916 Halesworth, October 1916 to Bedford.
Landed in France in January 1917.
https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/duke-of-wellingtons-west-riding-regiment/

War Diary at the National Archive, (catalogued as covering August 1914 to June 1918):- https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7355403

Of course I can’t guarantee that Samuel remained with the 2/7th Battalion throughout.

But looks likely he was conscripted 24th /25th March 1916 and posted to the 2/7th Battalion, then on Salisbury Plain. Most likely he went to France with that Battalion, arriving at some point between the 12th and 16th January 1917.

Hope that helps,
Peter

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I really like this approach looking at the fellow service men with similiar numbers which for someone like myself gives me a much better Idea of possible / probable movements of the person In question.

Have just downloaded the war diaries - appreciate when the correct link Is given as often saves a lot of headscratching on my part.

Still less than 24 hours since I posted here having nothing more than 3 names of distant cousins - I am starting to feel like I am really getting to know them now.

 

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Robert -  the expertise on here is pretty awesome.

The war diaries can be a hard read ie handwriting and mil terminology. They are very much worth it though and i found you can pick things up on the second and third read.  Go slowly…

its worth a few minutes on the long long trail website to understand context ie 4 rifle companies per battalion (Bn)  4 later 3 Bn in a brigade etc.  

Do you have any pictures of them?  Perhaps with an old auntie in the back of a cupboard?

 

 

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I find reading things several times Is a must as usually realise that I missed something Important.

Sadly no photos at my side of the family, have been trying to trace any living direct offspring from the Cockcrofts, but so far no luck

As far as I can tell none of the 5 sisters had any children, 1 had step children and I have been given contact details for 1 step granddaughter but so far they have not replied back to me.

Samuel and Emily had 1 son Harry b1927 but I havent got anywhere  looking Into that yet

havent found children for George and Edith or Allen and Alice

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In 1939 Register Edith is a widow, of George, living with an older female and no sign of any children with her as you may expect as they would have been under 15 from marriage in 1924.

There is a 0 yrs old death of a Cockcroft child in 1925 but I can't trace the lineage

Samuel and Alice, in the 1939 register also have no children listed

George

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Hi George, thats Interesting re Samuel and Emily in 1939 having no children, I had seen an Harry somewhere on a Ancestry family tree but had not yet verified it

Eldest sister Annie Cockcroft married a Walter Walker and when she died in 1954 she left money to Harry Cockcroft, (a School Master)

Samuel married 1927 so if Harry was his then he should have been on 39 register ?

Ok so guess another mystery for me to solve, thinking could he perhaps be an Illegitamate child of one of the sisters ? 

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22 minutes ago, Robert Wimpenny said:

Samuel married 1927 so if Harry was his then he should have been on 39 register ?

In terms of being able to see it, only if he was known by the NHS to have died before 1993. Otherwise his closed record won't be opened either until 2027 or sooner if someone pays to have it opened. Looking at the actual scan of the document, (available on FindMyPast and I believe Ancestry), there is almost certainly a third person in the household and their record is officially closed. Cannot guarantee it is their child, whether Harry or anyone else, but at this stage they would have to be the prime candidate.

Cheers
Peter

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