RE Help please. 430 and 438004 Lloyd Rowlands Royal Engineers MID & Serbian Award in Gold

[Grandrew2]

Hi

Lloyd Rowlands Private 430 and 438004 RE

I am researching the above who served in the RE from 17 March 1909 till his discharge 18 Jan 1919. In between time he was MID on 1^st Dec 1916 page 11805 for Egypt and later awarded the Serbian Oblich Medal for Bravery in Gold in LG 15 Feb 1917 page 1612. Only 308 of these awards were given to British Soldiers for WW1.

I can find a Pension Record Card that shows he lived in Altrincham, Cheshire and was born C1888 also that he married Clara Ellen Rowlands in Lincoln in 1920. Sadly it looks like he died in Altrincham on 28 Aug 1925

I would particularly like help in tracking down which unit he served with in the Royal Engineers in Egypt and how he came to get a Serbian Award for Bravery. I would like to track down a War Diary or History so I can see what he did.

Any help from any Royal Engineer experts to steer me in the right direction would be appreciated. He has a nice low number and an early Pre War entry date

Many thanks

 

Andrew

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

I wonder if he had another forename.

Lloyd Rowlands is a unique name, only one instance in England and Wales between 1837 & 1993 (Aberystwyth district, 1892).

However, Lloyd as a middle name is much commoner, eg. John Lloyd Rowlands.

Have you found him in any censuses?

Edited 22 July , 2021 by Dai Bach y Sowldiwr

[SteveE]

30 minutes ago, Grandrew2 said:

Lloyd Rowlands Private 430 and 438004 RE

Andrew

As a starting point the latter 438004 number was issued from the early 1917 renumbering of the Territorial Force and indicates that he was with 1st East Lancs. Field Company when the renumbering occurred.  1st East Lancs. Field Company block of numbers in that renumbering was 438001 - 440000.

1st East Lancs. Field Company (later 427th Field Company) was part of 42nd (East Lancashire) Division.  From the Long Long Trail website..."The East Lancashire was the first TF Division to move overseas. The Division was warned on 5 September 1914 that it would be sent to Egypt and four days later it began to embark at Southampton, the first transports sailing on 10 September. Disembarkation began at Alexandria on 25 September, and with the exception of the Manchester Brigade concentrated around Cairo, where acclimatisation and further training commenced."

All of which fits very nicely with Lloyd Rowlands' Date of entry into Theatre (3) Egypt 

Steve

Edited 22 July , 2021 by SteveE
Additional content

[Grandrew2]

My apologises I only included his name as it appears in the various Military Records 

However some of the Pension Cards show him as Lloyd Thomas Rowlands and I enclose all the cards I have found

Hopefully this is more helpful for someone please to help me pin down his RE unit in Egypt

Many thanks for looking and prompting me to provide fuller details

 

Andrew

 

[Grandrew2]

Thank you Steve I was scrabbling for Pension Cards when your reply came through

The East Lancs Field Co sounds very promising particularly as he entered Egypt at the same time.

I am now going to see if I can find a War Diary

Brilliant stuff thank you I would not have stumbled on this without your pointer

Many thanks

 

Andrew

[Gardenerbill]

The Serbian medal may be a red herring, I believe a quantity of Serbian medals were given to the British Army in gratitude for the liberation of Serbia and for them to allocate as they saw fit. I have come across other British servicemen who were awarded these medals despite never having served in the Balkans. 

[Terry_Reeves]

They were reciprocal awards, we gave those some of ours and vice-versa. His unit would have put him forward for an award and he received this probably under the heading of good work or some such.

TR

 

 

Edited 22 July , 2021 by Terry_Reeves

[Grandrew2]

Yes that sounds plausible. I will have a look at the other awards of the medal and see if there are more engineers

Meanwhile I see that the War Diary for the 427 Field Co does not start till March 1917 when they had moved to France. The earlier one is not available for download

I wonder if anyone has a copy of the N&M reprint of the HISTORY OF THE EAST LANCASHIRE FUSILIERS he may get a mention in the index or the Honours & Awards section?

WO 95/4593 Divisional Troops: 427 (1/1 East Lancs) Field Company Royal Engineers (1916 Jan - 1917... 

 

Thanks guys I appreciate all your help as my research has moved on 

 

Andrew

[SteveE]

1 hour ago, Grandrew2 said:

Meanwhile I see that the War Diary for the 427 Field Co does not start till March 1917 when they had moved to France. The earlier one is not available for download

If you can get/have access to Ancestry then the War Diary for 1/1 East Lancashire Field Company Royal Engineers (1915 May - Dec) which covers their time on Gallipoli is available here... https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/60380/images/42871_1831101456_11721-00001?backlabel=ReturnSearchResults&queryId=422c536e7df9ff1cb788757162547964&pId=20442

Steve

[ForeignGong]

HI

This is the LG for his Serb award

Page 1612 | Supplement 29945, 13 February 1917 | London Gazette | The Gazette

If you go to page 1605 which is the first page for the Serbian awards, bottom RH corner, the Serb awards are prefaced with "September & October 1916".

This may help with the WD entry.

Peter

[Grandrew2]

Steve and Peter thank you so much for your very helpful replies particularly Steve sending me the link for war diary

This does actually mention 430 L Rowlands in a Casualty list and being promoted to Paid L/Cpl so I can definitely say his MID and the Serbian award are for Gallipoli. Sadly the CO was more focussed on describing in great detail the trench building and I can find no reference to any awards. The diary finishes in Dec when they leave the peninsula and the new one starts in March

Now I know he was with this Unit I will download that and see if I can find anymore references to him

Within a day the Forum has come up trumps I have his Unit and I have the war diary which was what I hoped I might get a pointer to. 

Thank you again everyone your help is as impressive as ever and I have lots to work on

 

Andrew 

 

 

 

 

[charlie962]

 

17 hours ago, Grandrew2 said:

so I can definitely say his MID and the Serbian award are for Gallipoli.

His MiD was for Egypt, as you first noted. Murray's Despatch, in which he was mentioned,  covered the period 1st June to 30th Sept 1915. 1916 and covered operations against the Turks in the Canal area.

Edited 23 July , 2021 by charlie962

[Grandrew2]

Thanks Charlie so this infers he got two distinct awards. THE MID was for work in the Canal Zone and the Serbia Award LG  covered the time he was in Gallipoli?

Andrew

[charlie962]

On 23/07/2021 at 00:45, ForeignGong said:

If you go to page 1605 which is the first page for the Serbian awards, bottom RH corner, the Serb awards are prefaced with "September & October 1916".

Given that the Serbian Award is dated thus, I would suggest that it could be an 'upgrade' to his MiD (except that that had not yet been gazetted) and thus for the same campaign or it could be for an earlier period -- ie I do not know! Perusal of other RE names in MiD etc might bring up something ? I'll do a bit of digging.

 

Charlie

 

edit-  @ForeignGong, who posted above, is the most likely to know ?

Edited 24 July , 2021 by charlie962

[charlie962]

A couple of further thoughts:

1)  I've looked up the men in the LG MiD listing either side of Rowlands and find that three of them at least were also awarded the Military Medal, gazetted before the MiD appeared:

 Fearby JO, 563, 53rd Welsh DivSigCo RE   MM Egypt LG 16/11/16

Gunther HH, 1454 52nd Lowland DivSigCo RE  MM Egypt LG 21/10/16

Kerr RW, 2617  52nd Lowland DivSigCo RE  MM Egypt LG 21/10/16

 

2)  The 42nd east Lancs Div was heavily involved in the Battle of Romani, Aug 1916. A good background is given on wiki here.

(as was 52nd Lowland Div)

On the basis of these two 'thoughts' I am inclined towards his Serbian award being linked to the same action for which he was MiD and that that was probably the Battle of Romani, August 1916.  Very frustrating that War Diary is not accessible for Egypt for   1/1 ELancs Field Co, of which he was fairly certainly still part in 1916. The answer no doubt lies therein.

 

Charlie

Edited 24 July , 2021 by charlie962

[charlie962]

As an aside, I see he was awarded the Territorial Force Efficiency Medal in 1920

[Grandrew2]

Sorry I was out and couldn't thank you earlier. I like your thinking Charlie. I had started looking at soldiers mentioned in the diary and the First one CSM 3286  Frederick James Sowray (various spellings) turns up with lots of awards. DCM, CdeG, MSM and that was just the First. Should be lots more interesting things to turn up now I have an actual battle to consider

 

Many thanks

 

Andrew

 

Just now, Grandrew2 said:

Sorry I was out and couldn't thank you earlier. I like your thinking Charlie. I had started looking at soldiers mentioned in the diary and the First one CSM 3286  Frederick James Sowray (various spellings) turns up with lots of awards. DCM, CdeG, MSM and that was just the First. Should be lots more interesting things to turn up now I have an actual battle to consider

 

Many thanks

 

Andrew

 

That is a brilliant aside Charlie again many thanks

 

Andrew