AgentAlf Posted 22 July , 2021 Share Posted 22 July , 2021 Does anyone have access to the logs of HMS Crescent for 1917 to 1918? My Gt Grandad served as newly promoted, from the ranks, as a Warrant Telegraphist and was awarded DSM in 1917 for action against enemy, sited in Gazette. I just can’t find out what they got up to and would love to discover reason for citation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AgentAlf Posted 22 July , 2021 Author Share Posted 22 July , 2021 My great grandfather served on HMS K2 from March to July 1917 as a PO Telegraphist. He was awarded DSM in 1917 for action against enemy, as sited in the Gazette. I would like to find out why he was given the DSM. does anyone have any log information that might state a reason? from the earlier logs I have found seems they did lots of painting and practicing, but no action. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AgentAlf Posted 22 July , 2021 Author Share Posted 22 July , 2021 1 hour ago, AgentAlf said: My great grandfather served on HMS K2 from March to July 1917 as a PO Telegraphist. He was awarded DSM in 1917 for action against enemy, as sited in the Gazette. I would like to find out why he was given the DSM. does anyone have any log information that might state a reason? from the earlier logs I have found seems they did lots of painting and practicing, but no action. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AgentAlf Posted 22 July , 2021 Author Share Posted 22 July , 2021 2 hours ago, AgentAlf said: Does anyone have access to the logs of HMS Crescent for 1917 to 1918? My Gt Grandad served as newly promoted, from the ranks, as a Warrant Telegraphist and was awarded DSM in 1917 for action against enemy, sited in Gazette. I just can’t find out what they got up to and would love to discover reason for citation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AgentAlf Posted 22 July , 2021 Author Share Posted 22 July , 2021 4 minutes ago, AgentAlf said: Lt Cmd CC France MBE DSM retired 1946 Just now, AgentAlf said: Lt Cmd CC France MBE DSM retired 1946 Just now, AgentAlf said: Lt Cmd CC France MBE DSM retired 1946 CC France Rating.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AgentAlf Posted 22 July , 2021 Author Share Posted 22 July , 2021 4 minutes ago, AgentAlf said: CC France Officer 2.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Treasurer Posted 22 July , 2021 Share Posted 22 July , 2021 His DSM was actually for 'services in submarines in enemy waters' - not for action with the enemy. This was recognition for the quality of his contribution on patrols in the performance of his duties. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Treasurer Posted 22 July , 2021 Share Posted 22 July , 2021 (edited) Crescent was the depot ship for 13th Submarine Flotilla based in the Forth. It stayed put, providing the administrative and logistical support for the Flotilla. The log book would therefore tend to record comings and goings, weather etc, What will tell you more is his full service record from the National Archives, which you can access here, just by registering. It has more info than your letter: https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D7572818 https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D7092822 https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D6740727 Edited 22 July , 2021 by The Treasurer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horatio2 Posted 22 July , 2021 Share Posted 22 July , 2021 (edited) 4 hours ago, AgentAlf said: I just can’t find out what they got up to and would love to discover reason for citation. He was awarded the DSM. along with dozens of other ratings, " in recognition of their services in submarines in enemy waters:" This suggests that the award, along with his promotion to warrant rank, was in recogntion of the performance of his duties as a PO Tel (Exceptional Ability), rather than for any singular act. He is not in the list of those given the DSM "Honours for Services in Action with Enemy Submarines." 1 hour ago, AgentAlf said: Does anyone have access to the logs of HMS Crescent for 1917 to 1918? During his time in HMS CRESCENT she was the static depot ship for XIII Submarine Flotilla. His duties would have kept him in the depot ship CRESCENT's log for the period as depot ship will probably be rather dull. Edited 22 July , 2021 by horatio2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AgentAlf Posted 22 July , 2021 Author Share Posted 22 July , 2021 Thanks Horatio2, where did you fine that night please? Thanks The treasurer, thats helpful Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horatio2 Posted 22 July , 2021 Share Posted 22 July , 2021 7 minutes ago, AgentAlf said: where did you fine that night please? Say again in English, please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AgentAlf Posted 22 July , 2021 Author Share Posted 22 July , 2021 1 minute ago, horatio2 said: Say again in English, please. sorry insight not night! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horatio2 Posted 22 July , 2021 Share Posted 22 July , 2021 That is my reading of the exact wording for his DSM in the London Gazette (30 Oct 17). There are two separate lists: Honours for Services in Action with Enemy Submarines - To receive the Distinguished Service Medal. Honours for Service in Submarines - ..... in recognition of their services in submarines in enemy waters: To receive the Distinguished Service Medal. PO Tel France is in the latter list. His last annual assessment as a PO Tel on 31 Dec 1916 shows his up-grading to EXCEPTIONAL ability after a previous long run of SUPERIOR assessments over five years. All culminated in a deserved promtion to Warrant rank and a DSM to crown his service as a submarine rating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AgentAlf Posted 22 July , 2021 Author Share Posted 22 July , 2021 It is the last bit that is most interesting, I'v not seen this before and I have researched it for ages. I did miss the 2 types of DSM award, but that makes sense now I see it. Thanks so much H2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Michelle Young Posted 22 July , 2021 Admin Share Posted 22 July , 2021 I’ve merged thr two posts about the same man to avoid repetition of answers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horatio2 Posted 22 July , 2021 Share Posted 22 July , 2021 Overall an exemplary record of RN service to age 50 in 1936 and then on into recall for WW2. Not bad for an 18 year old telegraph clerk who initially joined for just five years as a Special Service seaman in 1904. DSM and MBE = a record to be proud of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AgentAlf Posted 22 July , 2021 Author Share Posted 22 July , 2021 Indeed we are proud, when he landed in Malta to charge the WT station in 1942, it would have been rather exciting. After the war he was in Nuremberg for a time too. Though I can't find any records he was in the Army for year or two before the navy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horatio2 Posted 22 July , 2021 Share Posted 22 July , 2021 15 minutes ago, AgentAlf said: Though I can't find any records he was in the Army for year or two before the navy. When he joined the RN in 1904 he would have been required to declare on oath any previous army service . Why would he not do this? No previous service appears on his record. His 1904 Special Service engagement papers (as SS.552) are held by the Fleet Air Arm Museum (National Musuem of the Royal Navy) but they are currently closed to enquiries. Perhaps, as a 16-17 year old lad he was in some sort of cadet corps. Army seems a bit unlikely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helpjpl Posted 22 July , 2021 Share Posted 22 July , 2021 The following may be of interest: 1. DSM - London Gazette, page 11317: https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/30363/supplement/1 2. Dix Noonan Webb: https://www.dnw.co.uk/auction-archive/past-catalogues/lot.php?auction_id=115&lot_uid=149374 3. MBE - London Gazette, page 8: https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/34238/supplement/1 4. RN Officers 1939-1945: https://www.unithistories.com/officers/RN_officersF2.html JP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horatio2 Posted 22 July , 2021 Share Posted 22 July , 2021 I have just noticed the reference to to the 2nd West Yorkshire Royal Engineers in the June 1992 MOD letter laying out his RN service. I know little of this unit except that they were volunteers and associated with telegraphs. Nor can I see where the MOD got this information. Perhaps an army expert can comment on the status of such men. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AgentAlf Posted 22 July , 2021 Author Share Posted 22 July , 2021 11 hours ago, helpjpl said: The following may be of interest: 1. DSM - London Gazette, page 11317: https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/30363/supplement/1 2. Dix Noonan Webb: https://www.dnw.co.uk/auction-archive/past-catalogues/lot.php?auction_id=115&lot_uid=149374 3. MBE - London Gazette, page 8: https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/34238/supplement/1 4. RN Officers 1939-1945: https://www.unithistories.com/officers/RN_officersF2.html JP Thanks JP, some updates since I last saw them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AgentAlf Posted 22 July , 2021 Author Share Posted 22 July , 2021 5 hours ago, horatio2 said: I have just noticed the reference to to the 2nd West Yorkshire Royal Engineers in the June 1992 MOD letter laying out his RN service. I know little of this unit except that they were volunteers and associated with telegraphs. Nor can I see where the MOD got this information. Perhaps an army expert can comment on the status of such men. Thanks I start a new thread in this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horatio2 Posted 23 July , 2021 Share Posted 23 July , 2021 As I understand it, the 2nd West Yorkshire Royal Engineers Voluinteers were a locally-raised unit (under the Lord Lieutenant's powers) and, being before the establishment of the Territorial Army in 1908, were not part of the army. So I still believe that he did not have prious army service. The reference for his 'army' service remains a mystery (to me!) but may have been mentioned on his RN (SS) engagement papers (FAAM). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tawhiri Posted 23 July , 2021 Share Posted 23 July , 2021 (edited) Just out of curiosity, does the answer to question 2 on his original 1904 service record have any significance, or is this just a standard notation? Image sourced from Ancestry: Edited 23 July , 2021 by Tawhiri Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RNCVR Posted 23 July , 2021 Share Posted 23 July , 2021 1 hour ago, Tawhiri said: Just out of curiosity, does the answer to question 2 on his original 1904 service record have any significance, or is this just a standard notation? Image sourced from Ancestry: FE = First Entry (into the RN) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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