Thomas Charles Henry TAYLOR RAMC

[Cornishbloke]

Hello

I'm researching my grandfather, Thomas Charles Henry Taylor, born 25 Nov 1883 in Islington.  I have a photograph of him which I think was taken in late 1917 and which shows him to be in the RAMC.  The family story is that he was sent to Russia at the end of the war and I have found an admissions book which shows a T C Taylor (113607) admitted from 82 CCO with frostbitten feet.

His service from this record began in Apr 1915 (3 years 9 months in Jan 1919) and he had been with his current unit for 4 months. 

I have found the medal card for 113607 which shows him as Thomas H Taylor.

I'd really like to know a little more about him - either his previous service or the history of his Unit in Russia.  

WO-372-19-180235.pdf

[TEW]

You're aware the admission book is for 82 Casualty Clearing Station so he was personnel at that unit in Jan 1919?

They have a diary but unfortunately it's only available by visiting TNA. This covers from Aug 1918. There's always a slim chance he may get mentioned in the diary, possibly on arrival or his frostbite.

TEW

[PRC]

Hi @Cornishbloke and welcome to the forum.

Looks like you have a potentially good match for your grandfather  - Private 113607 T.C. Taylor was 35 years old when he was admitted to 82 Casualty Clearing Station on the 18th January 1919.

However it will take a bit more digging to confirm grandfather and soldier are one and the same. Looks very much like his service files went up in flames when German bombs hit the London warehouse where they were being stored in WW2. There is a very small possibility that the soldier stayed in the Army post 1920, and so his paperwork would have been retained by the Ministry of Defence and so escaped the bombing. But it would be an obscure set of circumstances and so probably only worth discussimg if it starts to look realistic.

His Medal Index Card, (literally that, an index card raised at the relevant records office in 1919 to track documentation relating to the issue of medals), shows he qualified for the Victory Medal and the British War Medal, (VM & BWM). This combination of medals means he did not serve in a Theatre of War until some point on or after the 31st December 1915.

In the absence of service records, one option can sometimes be to look at men with nearby service records. Unfortunately for men who joined a Corps like the RAMC while the war was on this is usually not very profitable – after initial training the individuals could be posted anywhere. (Are you beginning to get a feel for why forum members have not been falling over themselves to answer your query )

A quick look brings up

113598 Albert Davey. Medal Index card (MiC) shows VM & BWM only.

113600 William Charles Cull conscripted 18th April 1917. A 36 year old widower, employed as a Bottle Washer, and living in Islington. Initially 113600, subsequently 45534. Medical Category C2, reported to the depot at Blackpool on the 29th April 1917. Under the Military Service Act of 1916 he was deemed to have been enlisted 24th June 1916. He joined “Y” Company at the Depot. Home service only – discharged October 1917.

113602 Francis William Woods. Home service only but honourably discharged  before the end of the conflict and so received the Silver War Badge. This gives an enlistment date of the 11th December 1915.

113603 John Wilkinson, subsequently WR/291629 Royal Engineers. MiC shows VM & BWM only. Medals issued by the Royal Engineers. Surviving service records shows that he signed up under the Derby Scheme on the 11th December 1915.  He was then a 37 year old married Fitters Mate living at Limehouse, East London. He was mobilised on the 18th April 1917 and was posted to ”Y” Company, R.A.M.C. the next day. On completion of his training he was posted to 69th General Hospital in Egypt.

113605 Harry Wells. Aged 17 years and 358 days when he attested on the 21st August 1916, he was a Chauffeur from Lee, East London. He was mobilised on the 17th April 1917. He was posted to “Y” Company, R.A.M.C. on the 19th. After training he went to the 3rd Western General Hospital in the UK.He was subsequently 403722 Army Service Corps.

113606 Alfred Basire. MiC shows VM & BWM only.

113608 Willian Charles Bunn was a 30 year old married Skilled Labourer living at Eltham who attested under the Derby Scheme on the 3rd December 1915 in the RAMC according to his surviving service records. He was mobilised on the 16th April 1917. William went initially to “Y” Company for his training on the 19th April 1917 but the same day it looks like he was compulsorarily transferred to the ASC. .

113609 Thomas H Soul. MiC shows VM & BWM only.

113611 Albert Philip Kingston has surviving service records. He was 17 years and 6 months old when he attested at Bristol on the 18th September 1916 for service in the RAMC. He was mobilised on the 19th April 1917 reporting to the RAMC Depot at Blackpool. On completion of his training he was posted to the War Hospital at Bradford .

113612 Clifford F. Emmett. MiC shows VM & BWM only.

113613 Herbert Orton, subsequently 268452 Royal Field Artillery. MiC shows VM & BWM only.

113614 Robert B. Burden. MiC shows VM & BWM only.

113615 Walter Bates enlisted again for a short period postwar and was issued with service number 200070. Most of the surviving paperwork relates to that period of service. He was originally conscripted on the 18th April 1917 into the RAMC at the age of 18 years and 9 months. Living at Coventry he was an unmarried case maker. Serving only in the UK, by the end of the war he was with the 329th Lowland Field Ambulance.

So looking for a pattern in there, it looks like a group of men who for various reasons were mobilised in the period 16th to 18th April 1917 and reached the RAMC Depot at Blackpool on the 19th April 1917. It’s at this point they were most likely allocated their new service numbers. They then did their basic training with “Y” Company before being dispersed wherever the Army needed them.

While this narrative doesn’t fit with the estimated date of enlistment of April 1915 based on the length of service shown in the Medical Admission Register, unfortunately my experience is that there is a high percentage of errors in these documents.

There is a bit more on the Derby Scheme on our parent site, the Long, Long Trail. https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/a-soldiers-life-1914-1918/enlisting-into-the-army/the-group-scheme-derby-scheme/

Need to take a break now, but hopefully that will get things started.

Cheers,
Peter

Edited 20 July , 2021 by PRC
Typo

[TEW]

As another exercise it might be worth looking through the whole A/D book and looking for service/pension records for the other RAMC men who were personnel at 82CCS.

There are another five on this page. Even though their numbers are all over the place a pattern of postings could emerge.

Medical Services General History Vol. IV covers the Russia campaign and has a few mentions of 82 CCS. Worth a read just for some background.

It's available for free on archive.org either as an online read or a pdf download. My phone blocks archive.org for some reason so I can't get a direct link.

It may link via this post.

TEW

[PRC]

In many cases with no surviving service records I would then turn to the Service Medal Rolls for a mans Victory Medal and British War Medal, (available only on Ancestry). I don’t currently have access, but in this case I know it will be unhelpful. Rather than completing the Roll with details of all the units the soldier served with in a Theatre of War the records clerks at the R.A.M.C. decided simply to show the Corps.

So turning to the 1919 Medical Admissions Register page to look for more clues, it shows Private 113607 T.C. Taylor, R.A.M.C. was actually serving with 82 CCS at the time he suffered from frostbite. He wasn’t the only 82 CCS man to be shown as being admitted  to the Casualty Clearing Station for treatment.
Private 127755 H. Wade was admitted on the 13th January 1919 with a sprained left ankle.
Sergeant 55611 R.W. Barber was admitted the same day with Aranchitis(?)
Private 301238 D Archibald was admitted on the 17th January 1919 with P.U.O. (Pyrexia of unknown origin = fever, cause not yet diagnosed).
Private 78937 J Hills was admitted 20th January 1919 with Myalgia (general)

127755 Harry Wade has surviving service records. He was posted to the North Russia Expeditionary Force on the 20th September 1918, having previously served on the Home Front. His conscription medical records his category as BII – just about the lowest category for overseas service, and at one point this dropped to CI. He was posted from No.9 Company. R.A.M.C. at Colchester on the 23rd May 1918 to the Depot at Blackpool. It was from there that he “Proceeded with No.11 Miscellaneous Reinforcements” on the 19th September 1918. He embarked at Dundee on the 20th September 1918, and disembarked Archamgel (date faded). He was posted to 82 C.C.S on the 13th November 1918. He was admitted 82 C.C.S. with a sprained left ankle – place and date very faded. He embarked at Archangel on the 1st September 1919. He was transferred to Class Z Army Reserve for demobilization on the 8th October 1919.
(The Class Z Reserve was created temporarily during the period of the Peace Treaty negotiations to allow the option for the Army to release men but being able to recall them in the event that negotiations broke down and hostilities resumed).
His last unit on his discharge is shown as 53 General Hospital, although on his discharge medical it is recorded as “A” Company, Depot, R.A.M.C.

His file contains an additional casualty report dated 21st February 1919 relating to frostbite of the left foot. After talking about a prior history of problems with his feet excluding being excused service boots:-
“Owing to incessant night convoys arriving during the night i.e. 17 during the month of February and the shortness of available prderlies, this man was detailed to me as one of the night convoy party. The Convoy arrived at 2 a.m. and Pte Wade reported sick the same morning.”
No location is stated, but the command and administrative  offices dealing with the report were based at Archangel.

A report into the sprained ankle from the unit commanding officer includes the insight “I have to keep 10 men on permanent night duty in the receiving room as Convoys arrive at any hour during the night and the first notice I ususally receive is that the Convoy has left Holmagorskaya the same night. During the month of Feb. a convoy arrived most nights usually about 2 or 3 am and with the orderlies isolated in the Infectious Block, the orderlies on the course at H.S. Kalyan and the usual number of sick amongst the unit it left me with very few available orderlies so as to prevent the same men being on every night for more than a week.”

Sergeant 55611 Robert W. Barber has no surving service records but turns up on an earlier admissions register for 82 C.C.S. on the 3rd December 1918 suffering from influenza.
Private 301238 D. A. S. Archibald was similarly admitted on the 9th December 1918 although his diagnosis was indigestion. Like Private 78937 John H. Hills none have any surviving serving records.

A limited sample but it might be possible to expand it by looking at the earlier reports for Barber and Archibald or wading through page by page. I wouldn’t want to read too much into it but the information about how Private Wade arrived in Russia has the potential to also apply to your grandfather.

A few more pieces from the that page showing the admission of Private Taylor with frostbite.

• Men from the 2/7th Durham Light Infantry and the 2/10th Royal Scots were also admitted.
• Two of the men admitted died – the one name I can clearly read is Private 277263 J. Summerfield, 2/7th D.L.I., who died of pneumonia on the 23rd January 1919. 
• Private Taylor was discharged to duty on the 27th January 1919. Other admissions were moved on to the 53rd Stationary Hospital by the Hospital Ship Kalyan.

Our parent site the Long Long Trail notes for the 2/7th Battalion, Durham Light Infantry:-
7 October 1918 : embarked for service in North Russia and landed at Archangel. https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/durham-light-infantry/

and the 2/10th Royal Scots:-
Reorganised as an infantry battalion, the 2/10th moved to England in July 1918 and to North Russia in August 1918 as part of the Archangel Force, returning home June 1919. https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/royal-scots-lothian-regiment/

According to his Commonwealth War Graves Commission webpage, Private 277263 John Summerfield, 2/7th Durham Light Infantry, was buried at Archangel Allied Cemetery. https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/471816/JOHN SUMMERFIELD/

Their webpage for that Cemetery adds “The cemetery was begun immediately after the occupation of the town in August 1918 by the Allied force sent to support the Soviet Russian Government against potential threat from German occupied Finland and other local sources. It was used by No.85 General Hospital, No.53 Stationary Hospital, No.82 Casualty Clearing Station, HM Hospital Ship 'Kalyan' and other Allied hospitals.” https://www.cwgc.org/visit-us/find-cemeteries-memorials/cemetery-details/54101/ARCHANGEL ALLIED CEMETERY/

Hope that helps,
Peter

[TEW]

I see that Wade has 4 months field service as per Taylor. Adds a little weight to the argument that they were both part of the 'Miscellaneous  Reinforcements'?

TEW

[clk]

Hi Cornishbloke,

16 hours ago, Cornishbloke said:

I have a photograph of him which I think was taken in late 1917 and which shows him to be in the RAMC. 

Does the birth certificate of the child give any detail of his specific unit at that time?

Regards
Chris

 

[TEW]

Not that I know a great deal about aspects of uniform but have been looking at group photos of RAMC men.

The lanyard is only showing on a minority of men. Was this a choice or significant to a role?

TEW

[PRC]

3 hours ago, clk said:

Does the birth certificate of the child give any detail of his specific unit at that time?

The address where that child was born or the address of the informant will also be a good starting point to try and track down his whereabouts in the 1918 and 1919 Absent Voters Lists. I suspect the 1919 one will have him with 82 CCS, but the 1918 one should turn up one of the units he was with before 82 CCS. Hopefully it will be the one that qualified him for the Victory Medal and the British War Medal - I'm not sure the North Russian Expeditionary Force would have done that.

See also https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/how-to-research-a-soldier/finding-soldiers-through-the-1918-absent-voters-lists/

Cheers
Peter

[TEW]

Looks like Russia #3 was a theatre of war. That would surely be enough for his pair entitlement?

TEW

[Cornishbloke]

Thank you everyone for your help and assistance.  I have some work to do!

The child is my father, born 21 2 1917 which makes me think that the photo is some time in late 1917 or 1918.  There were four sons, born 1909,1911,1917 and 1923 so my father is the only likely  candidate.  I'll dig out his birth certificate and see what the occupation is.  I know that he was Christened at a church in Herne Hill in March 1917, but I don't know whether my Grandfather was present.

I was not aware of the absent voters lists - that's a fantastic resource, although I can't find Thomas in any of them.  At the time they lived in the Lambeth/Brixton/Herne Hill area but the only three London entries are not him. I can't find my Grandmother, Daisy Taylor in the electoral roll for 1918 or 1919 but I doubt she would have fulfilled the property criteria.

I'm intrigued by the lanyard question - a quick search shows some with and some without. Interestingly the smaller photo of him doesn't have the lanyard.  The larger photo also seems to have a badge or something over the left breast button.  Is this significant.

 

I know this may seem silly but in the family photo he does seem comfortable in his uniform and it has the look of having had some care taken over it. That might be because he has had some service before the photo.

 

Once again - thank you for your input, it's fascinating

 

Richard

 

 

[PRC]

1 hour ago, Cornishbloke said:

I know this may seem silly but in the family photo he does seem comfortable in his uniform and it has the look of having had some care taken over it. That might be because he has had some service before the photo.

May just be me but looks like he has been aged by his experience in the family shot. Based on the speculative scenario I've set out, I would suggest the headshot was possibly taken during his time at Blackpool doing his initial training and the family shot was taken when he was back from Russia, possibly even on demobilisation leave. That could also be an an explanation of why he looks relaxed in his uniform. The child looks to be a toddler rather than a newborn baby, so could potentially be as old as 3.

1 hour ago, Cornishbloke said:

I'll dig out his birth certificate and see what the occupation is.  I know that he was Christened at a church in Herne Hill in March 1917, but I don't know whether my Grandfather was present.

That will be a good test - based on the speculative dates which has him mobilised in April 1917, Thomas should still be a civilian at the time of the christening.

Cheers
Peter

[Cornishbloke]

I agree with the aging - he looks much fresher in the head shot.  There is an inscription on it which suggests that he might have been away from home and again he doesn't look as comfortable in his uniform.  Leading on from this I wonder whether the lanyard signifies a qualification or an indication of post training service.

I've always been puzzled as to why my uncles were not in the photograph - both would have been children and presumably living with the family

A  quick question - would 82 CCS have been formed specifically for the Russian campaign or was it a pre-existing unit that was despatched from somewhere to there?

Cheers

 

Richard

[Matlock1418]

3 minutes ago, Cornishbloke said:

I wonder whether the lanyard signifies a qualification or an indication of post training service.

My understanding was that a lanyard was commonly just for a handy jack knife.  Always happy to be further educated!

:-) M

[Cornishbloke]

That's an interesting thought - I looked up the traditions of the Corps and the lanyard (Cherry Red) was not introduced until the 1950's so it may be something as simple as a knife or bottle opener

 

R

[Matlock1418]

10 minutes ago, Cornishbloke said:

it may be something as simple as a knife or bottle opener

Knife with a bottle opener = even better!

;-) M

[PRC]

4 minutes ago, Cornishbloke said:

A  quick question - would 82 CCS have been formed specifically for the Russian campaign or was it a pre-existing unit that was despatched from somewhere to there?

@TEW indicated above that the War Diary only started from August 1918, so seems likely they were newly formed. Forum member @wrightdw has written extensively on the North Russia Expeditionary Force as well as other aspects of the Allied involvement in the Russian Civil War, so hopefully can give a definative.

2 hours ago, Cornishbloke said:

The larger photo also seems to have a badge or something over the left breast button.  Is this significant.

If (and it's a big if!), this was taken after his return from Russia and assuming, (big assumption), he came back at the same time Private Harry Wade, then he would have received permission to wear the ribbons for his British War Medal and Victory Medal. However, unless it's the low resolution and poor lighting, it doesn't look like the ribbon for those medals and also looks like it is being worn in the wrong place.

The only other thing that occurred to me is that when I was looking for the records of others that joined the RAMC at the same time, there were repeated references to the Territorial Force. Of course by the time these men were mobilised the distinction had disappeared and they certainly weren't conscripted as members of the Territorial Force, (where records survive). But pre-war the members of the Territorial Force, a home service only organisation, could also sign up for defence of the empire. Those that did received the Imperial Service badge to show that they had taken that obligation, (and were in receipt of the extra pay). That would have been worn roughly where the badge is shown. In the months after the outbreak of the war, Territorial Force men were given the option to sign up for overseas service, (Defence of the Empire didn't really cover fighting in France, Belgium or Turkey), or remain home service only. From then on the Imperial Service badge dropped out of use.

What occurred to me when you mentioned taking care of his uniform, if he didn't get back to the UK until the end of 1919, when the vast majority of the British Army had been demobilised, he and his colleague would probably have had free run of the stores, and so may have picked out the very best of what was available. Pre-war uniforms may well have been of better quality than the simplified and utilitarian garb produced as the war went on.

Mind you that is all just speculation - hopefully someone can give you a more fact based answer

Cheers
Peter