Tawhiri Posted 20 July , 2021 Share Posted 20 July , 2021 19 hours ago, corisande said: I don't think we are there yet Thinking we might be getting there now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 20 July , 2021 Share Posted 20 July , 2021 (edited) 27 minutes ago, corisande said: He may not have known that she was dead. I doubt that he had the faintest idea as to what happened to her. That was my general feeling looking at what has been turned up recently. But if in doubt when wanting to remarry then probably best to use a new name other than Fagan. Might be interesting to find out what Victor Hanslar's Death Certificate had as cause of death in 1961 [if not already held OP to perhaps obtain] as it might perhaps give an insight into his situation in 1954/57 and getting his new(ish!) name in at MoP then. :-) M Edited 20 July , 2021 by Matlock1418 expand Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corisande Posted 20 July , 2021 Share Posted 20 July , 2021 11 minutes ago, Tawhiri said: Thinking we might be getting there now Yes, I agree The only nagging thing I have, is not just why he changed his name, but why he used "Victor Hanslar". It is not a name you would pull out of the air. The first use we have found is in his 1931 marriage Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corisande Posted 20 July , 2021 Share Posted 20 July , 2021 (edited) The other thing we have done is find Joseph McMorran Fagon, who (I think) is an uncle of @Leigh jones and the possibility of there being cousins across Canada/USA However even if they are tracked down, I doubt that they would be able to add any more about the enignatic Matthew Fagan. But nonetheless interesting to make contact with Edited 20 July , 2021 by corisande Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 20 July , 2021 Share Posted 20 July , 2021 5 minutes ago, corisande said: The only nagging thing I have, is not just why he changed his name, but why he used "Victor Hanslar". It is not a name you would pull out of the air. The first use we have found is in his 1931 marriage Hard to say why - perhaps it was a 'cool' name based on a movie star and/or someone he had previously known ??? Or ... ??? Would be interesting to find out, but .. who knows? Seems a likely particularly hard question to crack. :-) M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dai Bach y Sowldiwr Posted 20 July , 2021 Share Posted 20 July , 2021 8 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said: perhaps it was a 'cool' name based on a movie star and/or someone he had previously known ? I think it's unlikely. Googling brings up just 3 references, the supposedly Norwegian born man in 3 Ancestry trees. There seems to be no other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corisande Posted 20 July , 2021 Share Posted 20 July , 2021 The son who became Thomas Joseph MacMorran became a naturalised American in Oct 1942 and married Cleo Bennett and had a son in 1946 "Bruce Duncan Morran born 1946 2007 died after distinguised WW2 record Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 20 July , 2021 Share Posted 20 July , 2021 5 minutes ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said: I think it's unlikely. Googling brings up just 3 references, the supposedly Norwegian born man in 3 Ancestry trees. There seems to be no other. Anyone good at anagrams? :-) M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alf mcm Posted 20 July , 2021 Share Posted 20 July , 2021 (edited) A friend of mine told me of 2 polish colleagues who were having trouble getting jobs, because of their names. They were in Edinburgh and noticed an advertising poster. One of them took the surname 'Benson', the other became 'Hedges'! Regards, Alf McM Edited 20 July , 2021 by alf mcm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dai Bach y Sowldiwr Posted 20 July , 2021 Share Posted 20 July , 2021 Just now, Matlock1418 said: Anyone good at anagrams? :-) M That did cross my mind... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leigh jones Posted 20 July , 2021 Author Share Posted 20 July , 2021 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said: Anyone good at anagrams? :-) M I think i can help with that, so aside from the fact my great grandfather was a monumental idiot, he probably could not spell very well. Hanslar is a very rare name indeed but Hansler is pretty common. i simply think he picked that name to sound Norwegian but in fact spelt it wrong. which sucks as Hanslar is my middle name! damn it. sometimes the simplest answers are the right ones. anagrams would give him too much credit! Edited 20 July , 2021 by Leigh jones Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 20 July , 2021 Share Posted 20 July , 2021 3 minutes ago, Leigh jones said: my great grandfather was a monumental idiot, 3 minutes ago, Leigh jones said: anagrams would give him too much credit! Without knowing all of the full situation I think you are perhaps being a bit hard on him! The fellow was probably trying to do the best under the prevailing circumstances. 3 minutes ago, Leigh jones said: i simply think he picked that name to sound Norwegian but in fact spelt it wrong. which sucks as Hanslar is my middle name! damn it. I reckon you consequently have a rare and 'cool' name - so go with it!! :-) M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leigh jones Posted 20 July , 2021 Author Share Posted 20 July , 2021 7 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said: Without knowing all of the full situation I think you are perhaps being a bit hard on him! The fellow was probably trying to do the best under the prevailing circumstances. I reckon you consequently have a rare and 'cool' name - so go with it!! :-) M Your right, just frustrated from trying to do a family tree at the same time, too long in front of the monitor i think! was a different era back then and especially after serving and france could not blame the man for wanting to forget who he was in any way possible, we will never know how they dealt with such god awfulness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alf mcm Posted 20 July , 2021 Share Posted 20 July , 2021 This may just be a co-incidence, but… There are a couple of pension record cards for Matthew Fagan which mention an address in West Hartlepool. Familysearch have a record of a Victor Hansler, recorded as a stowaway to America in 1908. ihttps://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:2:77TH-WL6X-D?i=2131&cc=1921483&personaUrl=%2Fark%3A%2F61903%2F1%3A1%3AKFDW-FJ4 He had stowed away on the ‘Marquette’, which according to CLIP was registered in West Hartlepool. Perhaps Matthew heard the story and the name appealed to him? Regards, Alf McM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tawhiri Posted 20 July , 2021 Share Posted 20 July , 2021 (edited) I was trying to work out who Thomas Joseph McMorran (Fagan) was living with in the 1940 US Federal census, as there is a Joseph, Isabelle, and Helen McMorran living in the same household as him, all born in Scotland. The Isabelle is throwing me, but I think we've fairly conclusively shown that Isabelle Fagan, nee McMorran, died in Manitoba in April 1922, so the Isabelle in the census cannot be Joseph's mother, even though he is described as being a son. Looking at the 1901 Scotland census, the McMorran family we are looking for is living in Shettleston, Glasgow, with Isabella being the youngest in the family. The oldest child and son is a Joseph McMorran aged 23, which if we add 40 years to that age to get 63, is close to the age of the Joseph McMorran in the 1940 US Federal census, which is given as 61. So potentially, after Isabella's death in Manitoba in 1922, he was sent to live with the family of her oldest brother in the US. Edited 20 July , 2021 by Tawhiri Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leigh jones Posted 20 July , 2021 Author Share Posted 20 July , 2021 14 minutes ago, alf mcm said: This may just be a co-incidence, but… There are a couple of pension record cards for Matthew Fagan which mention an address in West Hartlepool. Familysearch have a record of a Victor Hansler, recorded as a stowaway to America in 1908. ihttps://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:2:77TH-WL6X-D?i=2131&cc=1921483&personaUrl=%2Fark%3A%2F61903%2F1%3A1%3AKFDW-FJ4 He had stowed away on the ‘Marquette’, which according to CLIP was registered in West Hartlepool. Perhaps Matthew heard the story and the name appealed to him? Regards, Alf McM hmm i wonder if Victor Hansler was ever at the orphanage and they knew each other and simply knew he stowed away and took his identity? i doubt he would remember it if it happened in 1908 for him to think of it later after the war, unless he had some personal investment at the time, either knowing him or it directly effecting him?. is certainly a pretty big coincidence though. you lot are insanely amazing at this i still can not fathom all the stuff you have come up with or how. next topic how to make millions hahaha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corisande Posted 21 July , 2021 Share Posted 21 July , 2021 14 hours ago, Tawhiri said: So potentially, after Isabella's death in Manitoba in 1922, he was sent to live with the family of her oldest brother in the US. I think you ae right there. It all seems to have happened in April 1922 (even if the exact dates are a bit fuzzy) It would also explain why he his name became Mc Morran Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leigh jones Posted 21 July , 2021 Author Share Posted 21 July , 2021 Is this another Alias at all? hope not already confused enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corisande Posted 21 July , 2021 Share Posted 21 July , 2021 This man was discharged 13 Oct 1891, your man was not even born then Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leigh jones Posted 21 July , 2021 Author Share Posted 21 July , 2021 3 minutes ago, corisande said: This man was discharged 13 Oct 1891, your man was not even born then I think it's a miss print? does this say the the guy did fight in WW1? i think he died and is not my great grandfather anyway, could not take another plot twist ***. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ss002d6252 Posted 21 July , 2021 Share Posted 21 July , 2021 18 minutes ago, Leigh jones said: I think it's a miss print? does this say the the guy did fight in WW1? i think he died and is not my great grandfather anyway, could not take another plot twist ***. It's a a different man. Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leigh jones Posted 21 July , 2021 Author Share Posted 21 July , 2021 1 minute ago, ss002d6252 said: It's a a different man. Craig Oh sorry i thought the serial number 290888 meant it was the same, showing my amateur status here *** i will leave it to you professionals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ss002d6252 Posted 21 July , 2021 Share Posted 21 July , 2021 33 minutes ago, Leigh jones said: Oh sorry i thought the serial number 290888 meant it was the same, showing my amateur status here *** i will leave it to you professionals. Don't worry - sometimes you can strike lucky and find something that others have missed. In this case the man was born 1868 so it looks like he was was discharged 1891 and then re-enlisted in WW1. Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alf mcm Posted 21 July , 2021 Share Posted 21 July , 2021 (edited) 19 hours ago, Tawhiri said: A search of the British Newspaper Archives also shows that in addition to the 1895 assault of his wife and and mother-in-law, there is another potential assault of his mother-in-law in 1893, and in 1897 a John M'Farlane was on trial for having stabbed Michael Fagan, seaman, during an argument on the docks. He was also in the newspapers in 1900, charged with assaulting his wife yet again. From the Dundee Evening Telegraph of 1 January 1900: Michael labourer, Lilybank Road, would not admit having assaulted his wife. Mrs Fagan stated she had been married for 14 years, and had four of a family. Her husband was ... Which does handily confirm that there were four children in total from the marriage. The second article confirms Michael Fagan was in Dundee in 1900. Scotlandspeople has a death certificate for a Michael Fagan, age 50, who died in St. Mary [Dundee] in 1900. There is no Michael Fagan about this age anywhere in Scotland in the 1901 Scotland census, and there is no Michael Fagan in the English 1901 census claiming to be born in Scotland. This death certificate is defenitely worth investigating. Corisande has previously mentioned, from a shipping list, a Michael Fagan, seaman, born in Dundee in about 1946. Ancestry have a record for a Michal Fagan, seaman as patient in the Dreadnought Seaman's Hospital. He is shown as 52 years old. https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc=bmY56378&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&indiv=1&dbid=61093&gsln=fagan&gsfn_x=1&gsln_x=1&cp=0&new=1&rank=1&uidh=9y4&redir=false&msT=1&gss=angs-d&pcat=37&fh=17&h=39704&recoff=&ml_rpos=18&queryId=15baf4da50389c0278b6889683b109fc Considering at this time that most people probably didn't know how old they were it is possible that these 3 are the same person. Regards, Alf McM Edited 21 July , 2021 by alf mcm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tawhiri Posted 21 July , 2021 Share Posted 21 July , 2021 (edited) 16 hours ago, corisande said: I think you ae right there. It all seems to have happened in April 1922 (even if the exact dates are a bit fuzzy) It would also explain why he his name became Mc Morran I think I can now confirm that Joseph McMorran was indeed Isabella's oldest brother. According to the 1901 Scotland census, Joseph was born in 1877/78 in Rutherglen, Larnarkshire, and the family were living in Shettleston, Glasgow at the time of the 1901 census. 1940 US Federal census Joseph's US naturalization records state that he was born on 11 October 1877, in Rutherglen, Larnarkshire, and that his last foreign address was Shettleston, Scotland. Joseph also states that he and his family emigrated to the US in April 1914, having married Isabella Thompson in Glasgow, Scotland in August 1909, with daughter Helen being born the following year in July 1910. Joseph seems to have got his years mixed up as this is the only Helen McMorran birth on ScotlandsPeople between 1906 and 1921: MCMORRAN HELEN JOHNSTON F 1909 622/2 602 Shettleston Which then leads me to this marriage in 1908: MACMORRAN JOSEPH THOMPSON ISABELLA 1908 644/4 243 Dennistoun Edited 22 July , 2021 by Tawhiri Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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