Need an expert on WW1 pension cards.

[Matlock1418]

4 hours ago, ss002d6252 said:

Cautiously saying this - Craig should be able to confirm/perhaps correct this - but I think for a former Private discharged 17/6/20 [from his first Matthew Fagan PLIC] then a pension of 12/- pw from 13/7/20 would normally equate to 30% disablement for employment purposes [under the 1919 Royal Warrant on pay & pensions].  This pension date matches the first PLIC - he is claiming as a Married man.

The second PLIC appears to record the pension as for Life [this later PLIC however has an alternative date of discharge of 31.12.20 - but this now perhaps seems erroneous] and does not indicate his marital status.

It does rather look like Matthew Fagan's later [quite long established it would seem] Victor Hanslar identity had rather caught up with him and/or seems to have needed regularising at the MoP 1954/1957.

:-) M

Edit: Just speculation - one wonders what effect a GSW to his face [date not known to me] might have had on his first 'Fagan' marriage. ???

Edited 19 July , 2021 by Matlock1418
edit

[Tawhiri]

James Fagan, service number 2921, also has a surviving soldiers' will on ScotlandsPeople, which may mention the brothers as well, although he was married by the time of his death.

Fagan     James     06/12/1917    2921     Private      Royal Scots (Lothian Regiment)      France or Belgium

Where it gets interesting is that on attesting in July 1914, James Fagan names his brother Peter as next of kin, yet in May 1918 his effects were sent to an Elizabeth Fagan living in Anderston, Glasgow. There are only two James Fagan marriages between 1914 and 1917 on ScotlandsPeople, neither of them to a spouse named Elizabeth. There is, however, this marriage in 1913 that was registered in Anderston, Glasgow:

FAGAN    JAMES       CONNOLLY     ELIZABETH      1913       644/11 326     Anderston

The Register of Soldiers' Effects shows payments to a widow named Elizabeth, and at least one of the associated pension index cards lists two sons, one of who is John Connolly Fagan, so this has to be his marriage. So why did he apparently conceal both his previous service and his marriage on attesting in 1914? I'm starting to think that James led just as interesting a life as Matthew apparently did.

Edited 20 July , 2021 by Tawhiri

[ss002d6252]

In respect of Matthew the pension side itself is interesting as he would have to have declared himself still to be alive at regular intervals,  or his pension would stop.

This means that he was still regularly declaring himself under Fagan for as long as his pension continued (until his name was changed).

With the regular paperwork it would be surprising if he could conceal it from his (new) wife.

Craig 

[corisande]

15 minutes ago, ss002d6252 said:

This means that he was still regularly declaring himself under Fagan for as long as his pension continued (until his name was changed).

Craig

So how would he have been paid. I doubt it was direct to a bank account. Would he therefore have gone weekly, or whatever, to a Post Office, with proof of identity ?

[Leigh jones]

i do not know if this makes any difference but i have found a Pvt Mathew Fagan who seems to be a different one who served with Prince of Wales's Leinster Regiment (Royal Canadians) and died on 10 March 1920. 

This is a Different man as far as i can see but you guys are the experts just wonder if it is causing any confusion. though you guys probably already have seen this thought i would mention it.

He is buried at Colchester, Colchester Borough, Essex, England

Edited 20 July , 2021 by Leigh jones

[ss002d6252]

1 hour ago, corisande said:

Craig

So how would he have been paid. I doubt it was direct to a bank account. Would he therefore have gone weekly, or whatever, to a Post Office, with proof of identity ?

Weekly draft at the post office. The Post Office retained the book (like an old family allowance style book) and the party had to present the identity certificate that matched the booklet. It was originally done in books of 13 weeks but that was later extended. In the late 1920's the pensioner took to retaining the payment book.

Craig

[ss002d6252]

9 hours ago, Matlock1418 said:

Cautiously saying this - Craig should be able to confirm/perhaps correct this - but I think for a former Private discharged 17/6/20 [from his first Matthew Fagan PLIC] then a pension of 12/- pw from 13/7/20 would normally equate to 30% disablement for employment purposes [under the 1919 Royal Warrant on pay & pensions].  This pension date matches the first PLIC - he is claiming as a Married man.

Yes, 30% was 12s.

Craig

[ss002d6252]

7 hours ago, Tawhiri said:

James Fagan, service number 2921, also has a surviving soldiers' will on ScotlandsPeople, which may mention the brothers as well, although he was married by the time of his death.

Fagan     James     06/12/1917    2921     Private      Royal Scots (Lothian Regiment)      France or Belgium

Where it gets interesting is that on attesting in July 1914, James Fagan names his brother Peter as next of kin, yet in May 1918 his effects were sent to an Elizabeth Fagan living in Anderston, Glasgow. There are only two James Fagan marriages between 1914 and 1917 on ScotlandsPeople, neither of them to a spouse named Elizabeth. There is, however, this marriage in 1913 that was registered in Anderston, Glasgow:

FAGAN    JAMES       CONNOLLY     ELIZABETH      1913       644/11 326     Anderston

The Register of Soldiers' Effects shows payments to a widow named Elizabeth, and at least one of the associated pension index cards lists two sons, one of who is John Connolly Fagan, so this has to be his marriage. So why did he apparently conceal both his previous service and his marriage on attesting in 1914? I'm starting to think that James led just as interesting a life as Matthew apparently did.

James worked pre-war for JW & T Connolly so I suspect it was a family business from his wife's side.

Craig

[corisande]

His first wife produced a child in Troon in 1920

Matthew  is given as the father. But the child later emigrated to USA and used Thomas Joseph McMorran as his name (he dropped the Fagan)

Ancestry tree

[corisande]

18 hours ago, Tawhiri said:

Ireland, Crew Lists and Shipping Agreements, 1863-1920 on Ancestry has a Michael Fagan, born in Dundee about 1846, signing on a ship called the 'Duke of Rothesay' for four days in October 1899, so I might be inclined to believe that he is indeed a seaman. Tracking a death down for him though is problematical. In the 1891 Scotland census Margaret McNaughton is living in St Clement, Dundee, with her parents, Peter and Margaret Flynn, along with James Fagan, aged 2, and Mary Fagan, aged 1, who are described as grandson and granddaughter respectively.

Michael Fagan is in court in 1895 for assaulting his wife and mother-in-law and gets 3 weeks jail

After that, as Tarwhiri says, he cannot be found

[alf mcm]

The Dundee Absent Voters Roll for 1919 has a few Fagans.

Record courtesy Friends of Dundee City Archives.

Regards,

Alf McM

1919 AbsVoters F.pdf

[ss002d6252]

12 minutes ago, corisande said:

His first wife produced a child in Troon in 1920

Matthew  is given as the father. But the child later emigrated to USA and used Thomas Joseph McMorran as his name (he dropped the Fagan)

Ancestry tree

The various family members seemed keen to divest themselves of the Fagan surname.

Craig

[corisande]

OK , I have reached the end of the road with him. I can distill from the thread the following. I still cannot fathom why he changed his name to Victor Hanslar, a very unusual name to which he appears to have had no connection. If you want anonimity you choose a name like John Brown. And as he had the documents to show he was (had been) Matthew Fagan, he could have continued to draw his pension as that without going to bureaucratic hassle of changing it to Victor Hanslar)

As far as I can see only the Orphanage Records might possibly help - but they were using Fagan, and he used Fagan up to 1920

 

1886 Jul 26. His parents married in Dundee (on both his birth cert and in Scottish Marriages)

1888 James Fagan born Dundee. Matthew's brother

1892 Peter Fagan born Dundee . Matthew's brother

1895 Oct 12 Born Matthew Fagan in Dundee (birth cert) Son of Michael Fagan (seaman)  & Maggie (nee McNaughlan)

1895 Dec his father jailed 21 days for assaulting his wife and mother-in-law

1900 His mother Margaret died in Dundee

1901 census living in Smyllum Orphanage, Larnark. Aged 5 , born Dundee. His brothers James and Peter are there too

1911 census he is an inmate in an institution (I cannot get its name) in Glasgow

1913 Oct enlists #71195 (service record) in HLI. Lists NOK as brother Peter & James living in Glasgow

1915 married in Troon to Isabella C  McMorran. He says his father was James Fagan, Coal Miner & mother Mary Howie (there is no record of such a marriage)

1920 Feb Son Joseph born in Troon

1920 Jun 17 Leaves the Army

1920 Jul 13 Pension starts - wife not eligible. Still Matthew Fagan

so between 1920 in Scotland and 1931 in Hemel Hempstead he changes his name to Victor Hanslar. This is an inexplicable choice of name

1921 Jul His wife and child leave for Canada

1922 His wife dies in Manitoba. His son eventually died in Texas in 2007, and had changed his name from Fagan to McMorran, his mother's maiden  name

1931 married in Hemel Hempstead to Edith M Foster as Victor Hanslar

1932 First child of this marriage born. First children born  in 1936, 1939 and 1946

1939 in Register as Victor Hanslar (giving dob as 12 Oct 1898) living in Watford with wife Edith M and child Victor H (b 1939)

1954 Jun 6 Finally changes name from Fagan to Hanslar on army pension records. This means that up till this point he had drawn a weekly pension in the name of Fagan, and would have produced proof of that - which he could easily have done. So why he chose in 1954 to change his name on the pension is unclear.

1961 died as Victor Hanslar in Hemel Hempstead

Edited 20 July , 2021 by corisande

[Tawhiri]

It looks like whatever records from the Smyllum Orphanage still exist are held by the Archdiocese of Glasgow Archives. To go any further would probably require a physical visit to the archives.

https://catalogue.nrscotland.gov.uk/scancatalogue/details.aspx?reference=GB1091/RI&st=1&tc=y&tl=n&tn=y&tp=y&k=&ko=o&r=GB1091&ro=s&

[Matlock1418]

51 minutes ago, ss002d6252 said:

The various family members seemed keen to divest themselves of the Fagan surname.

CD and OT may perhaps have something to answer for! ;-)

18 minutes ago, corisande said:

So why he chose in 1954 to change his name on the pension is unclear.

Also potentially alternatively 1957 - speculating of course - Possibly, just possibly, he was not very well and was perhaps hoping his widow could pick up a pension if he died [and aiming to make things a bit simpler for her with her married surname of Hanslar] = ???

:-) M

Edit: Following on from Craig's earlier post regarding widows [unless the rules had perhaps changed ??] - I'm not sure that cunning plan would have worked though.

Edited 20 July , 2021 by Matlock1418
edit

[Tawhiri]

There are a total of four Fagan children living at the Smyllum Orphanage in the 1901 Scotland census. Sister Mary, born in 1889, is also there with her three brothers.

I was also puzzling over Margaret McNaughton living with Peter and Margaret Flynn in the 1891 Scotland census with the two older children, and being described as their daughter and grandchildren respectively but it appears that Margaret Flynn was married twice.

FLOOD   MARY      MCNAUGHTON     JAMES     1856      282/1 138       Dundee First District

FLOOD   MARY      FLYNN                    PETER      1877     282/3 204       St Clement

[ss002d6252]

7 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

 

Edit: Following on from Craig's earlier post regarding widows [unless the rules had perhaps changed ??] - I'm not sure that cunning plan would have worked though.

That's got me thinking... something in the back of mind I need to check on that as something might have changed (why does 1927 jump out to me ?). Off to check.

Craig

[Tawhiri]

A search of the British Newspaper Archives also shows that in addition to the 1895 assault of his wife and and mother-in-law, there is another potential assault of his mother-in-law in 1893, and in 1897 a John M'Farlane was on trial for having stabbed Michael Fagan, seaman, during an argument on the docks. He was also in the newspapers in 1900, charged with assaulting his wife yet again.

From the Dundee Evening Telegraph of 1 January 1900:

Michael labourer, Lilybank Road, would not admit having assaulted his wife. Mrs Fagan stated she had been married for 14 years, and had four of a family. Her husband was ...

Which does handily confirm that there were four children in total from the marriage.

Edited 20 July , 2021 by Tawhiri

[travers61]

It seems that even if Matthew Fagan changed his name to Victor Hanslar by deed poll (rather than just by usage) in England & Wales there is little chance of the records surviving.

If the deed poll was drawn up without the aid of a solicitor, there may never have been any record of it other than the document itself. If it was made by a solicitor, it is possible they may have kept a copy on file, but the file is unlikely to have been kept for more than five years.   A person changing their name can ‘enrol’ their deed poll, creating a permanent record, in the Enrolment Books of the Supreme Court of Judicature (formerly the Close Rolls of Chancery). However, there is a cost for this option and we estimate that less than 1% of changes of name by deed poll are enrolled. Consequently, most deed poll records do not survive.

https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/changes-of-name/

 

Which name he was using and his circumstances in April 1921 could be found on the UK 1921 Census when it is released. At the moment expected release dates are late 2022 for Scotland and early 2022 for England and Wales.

 

Edited 20 July , 2021 by travers61

[Tawhiri]

2 hours ago, corisande said:

Matthew  is given as the father. But the child later emigrated to USA and used Thomas Joseph McMorran as his name (he dropped the Fagan)

It wasn't just Thomas who emigrated, it looks as though Isabella went with him. There is a passenger list from July 1921 for the Saturnia, bound for Quebec and Montreal, with a Mrs Bella Fagan aged 29, accompanied by a Joseph Fagan aged 1 1/2, travelling to Canada as third class passengers. Their address is given as 137 Sauchihall Street, Glasgow. Curiously, there is another individual travelling with them giving the same address, who is male and aged 32.

Image sourced from Ancestry:

It's definitely the correct Isabella and Joseph Fagan as there is a corresponding Canadian arrivals card for Joseph, that states he was born in Troon, and travelling with his mother. Nearest relative in the country that they had come from was his father M Fagan, C/O GPO Glasgow.

Edited to add that Isabella's arrivals card states that she was born in Troon, is married, and is travelling to her mother in Manitoba, with passage paid for by her mother and sister. Her nearest relative in the country she left is Matthew Fagan again.

Edited 20 July , 2021 by Tawhiri

[corisande]

21 minutes ago, Tawhiri said:

Curiously, there is another individual travelling with them giving the same address, who is male and aged 32.

I don't think he is involved. 137 Sauchiehall St, is just the address of the Agent who booked the tickets. Oscar Gunnlangson was a married Canadian returning to Canada. They have different ticket numbers

But certainly Bella is off to start a new life in Canada

[Tawhiri]

I wonder if this is a potential death for Isabella in Manitoba?

Name:	Isa Bella Fagan
Age at Death:	30
Birth Date:	abt 1892
Death Date:	26 Apr 1922
Death Place:	Rm Brenda, Manitoba, Canada

I can't find a corresponding US arrivals card for Isabella, and Joseph's card says he was pre-examined in Winnipeg, Manitoba on 29 April 1922.

 

 

[corisande]

10 minutes ago, Tawhiri said:

I wonder if this is a potential death for Isabella in Manitoba?

That is her. Her Canadian arrival form states she was destined for her mother in Waskada, Manitoba

Waskada is an unincorporated urban community in the Municipality of Brenda – Waskada within the Canadian province of Manitoba

[Tawhiri]

Which makes his apparent change of name even more curious, since at the time of his marriage to Edith Foster in 1931, he was a widower and free to marry again.

[corisande]

1 minute ago, Tawhiri said:

Which makes his apparent change of name even more curious, since at the time of his marriage to Edith Foster in 1931, he was a widower and free to marry again.

 

He may not have known that she was dead. I doubt that he had the faintest idea as to what happened to her.