Need an expert on WW1 pension cards.

[Matlock1418]

As identified by @alf mcm - For anyone who has not seen it there is also a Pension "Stop Card" for FAGAN, Matthew - See HANSLAR, Victor - also dated 1954

Image courtesy of WFA/Fold3

:-) M

Edit:  There are also two earlier Pension Ledger Index Cards for FAGAN. Matthew, Pte., 71195, Royal Scots - date of discharge 17.6.20 - GSW Face - address 3 Back Templehill, Troon - later C/o GPO West Hartlepool.  Change of address and transfer(s) of file appears to have been 1/1925 and 7/1925 respectively.  Seems to have gone from Region 1 [Scotland] to Region 2 [Northern] and later to Awards Bch R, 8 West St, Southampton 13/7/25

Further edit:  His pension file is likely long gone/deliberately destroyed after its use was ended.  He does not seem to have a pension file amongst the few disability claims retained at the National Archives under PIN 26 as Fagan or Hanslar.

Edited 19 July , 2021 by Matlock1418
edit and then correction of typos within! sorry folks. then expand

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

Just to be pedantic, I'd say the entry noting the change of name (in red ink, and I think in the same hand on both cards) might be1957, rather than1954.

Is it not  a curvy topped, flowery imprecise 7, rather than a 4.

If it's a 4, it's not particularly angular, no cross, and rather curved.

[alf mcm]

1 hour ago, corisande said:

1. Michael Fagan #71195 on the OP Pension card says on his enlistment  that he was born in Dundee. He claimed to be 18 years 5 months when he enlisted in Oct 1913

    There is a Michael Fagan born 12 Oct 1895 in Dundee

     This birth shows that the 1886 marriage in ScotlandsPeople of Michael Fagan to Maggoe McNaughton in Dundee, is the correct marriage

 

2. There is a Victor Hanslar in 1939 Register who claimed to be born 12 Oct 1898

 

3. It would be an unlikey coincidence , given the 12 Oct and the pansion card,  that they were not one and the same man

 

I have no idea why he changed his name , but to me Fagan is clearly his "real" name. and one would have to look for official papers to show he changed his name as he married officially as Hanslar and died as Hanslar

 

 

 

 

12th October 1898 on the Dundee birth certificate is the same as shown on 1939 Register.

He must be the same person.

Regards,

Alf McM

[ss002d6252]

16 minutes ago, alf mcm said:

12th October 1898 on the Dundee birth certificate is the same as shown on 1939 Register.

He must be the same person.

Regards,

Alf McM

To much of a coincidence to be otherwise.

That then brings up his two brothers.

In May 1920 the address he gave the army was

Same address was used for the pension in Oct 1911.

He's also married by Oct 1920

I wonder if this has anything to do with the change of name.
 

Craig

[ss002d6252]

For his wife not to be counted for pension purposes then the 1919 RW would require that,

Craig

[Tawhiri]

1 hour ago, corisande said:

The Michael Fagan on the birth cert was a "seaman" and that may not have been his real name. It would take a bit of work to track him down

Ireland, Crew Lists and Shipping Agreements, 1863-1920 on Ancestry has a Michael Fagan, born in Dundee about 1846, signing on a ship called the 'Duke of Rothesay' for four days in October 1899, so I might be inclined to believe that he is indeed a seaman. Tracking a death down for him though is problematical. In the 1891 Scotland census Margaret McNaughton is living in St Clement, Dundee, with her parents, Peter and Margaret Flynn, along with James Fagan, aged 2, and Mary Fagan, aged 1, who are described as grandson and granddaughter respectively. I'm not too bothered by the fact that Margaret is using her maiden name, Scottish women seem to switch back and forth in this regard, but it certainly suggests that Michael is absent.       

[Matlock1418]

3 hours ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

Just to be pedantic, I'd say the entry noting the change of name (in red ink, and I think in the same hand on both cards) might be1957, rather than1954.

Is it not  a curvy topped, flowery imprecise 7, rather than a 4.

If it's a 4, it's not particularly angular, no cross, and rather curved.

Not pedantic to check and challenge.

It certainly could be a 7 - and I now tend as you.

1954 or 1957 - a pretty late date to change your name/report changing your name!

:-) M

Edited 19 July , 2021 by Matlock1418

[ss002d6252]

Between 1913 and 1920 there are no Matthew Fagan's married in England.

Which then brings us back to Scotland and one single marriage between 1913 and 1920

As I have some long sitting credits I might as well use them for something, so it gives us this horrendously badly scanned image of a Troon marriage on 15 Dec 1915. Marriage to Isabella C McMorran (or so says the transcription).

Father looks to be listed as James Fagan, coal hewer (deceased) and mother Mary Fagan (deceased).

Matthew has declared he's aged 22 in 1915.

Craig

 

[ss002d6252]

Craig

[Tawhiri]

This would appear to be Isabella's birth in 1890:

MCMORRAN     ISABELLA COWIE      F     1890      590/2 107    Troon

No obvious deaths in Scotland for her, although there is an Isabella Fegan who dies in Liverpool in 1978, aged 87, with a birth month/year of September 1890.

I would note in looking through Matthew Fagan's service record, that he was appointed acting corporal on 16 November 1915, and subsequently reduced to the ranks on 10 January 1916.

Edited 20 July , 2021 by Tawhiri

[alf mcm]

4 minutes ago, Tawhiri said:

This would appear to be Isabella's birth in 1890:

MCMORRAN     ISABELLA COWIE      F     1890      590/2 107    Troon

No obvious deaths in Scotland for her, although there is an Isabella Fegan who dies in Liverpool in 1978, aged 87, with a birth month/year of September 1890.

This would mean Matthew was a bigamist, which could explain the change of name. The Liverpool death certificate would need to be checked to confirm father's name and occupation.

Regards,

Alf McM

[ss002d6252]

At the time of the marriage he was based at Gailes Camp with the RSF, just outside Troon, as per his service records. This matches the location noted on the marriage cert and the regiment.

He was busted back to the ranks a month later for missing tattoo by overstaying leave.

Craig

[corisande]

1 hour ago, ss002d6252 said:

For his wife not to be counted for pension purposes then the 1919 RW would require that,

 So if he married in 1915, does this imply that he was separated from his wife at the time of the pension "not eligible" for her in 1920

[ss002d6252]

1 minute ago, corisande said:

 So if he married in 1915, does this imply that he was separated from his wife at the time of the pension "not eligible" for her in 1920

I was just going to post re that - I think it is the most likely case.

Craig

[ss002d6252]

It's interesting that his marriage cert has a different age and parents to his birth certificate - did he not know them or was he just creating a story as he went ?

Craig

[corisande]

The question here is why is his life so disjointed with both father' Christian name, Surname, and mothers names. I cannot prove it , but I don't think he knew. I think that the birth cert is probably correct, but that he did not have a copy of it

 

His birth cert gives parents Michael Fagan (seaman)  and  Maggie McNaughton

But his marriage in 1915 gives his parents as James Fagan (coal hewer) and Mary (nee looks like Harris, but could be anything)

His 1931 marriage gives his father as James Hansler

Edited 19 July , 2021 by corisande

[ss002d6252]

1 minute ago, corisande said:

The question here is why is his life so disjointed with both father' Christian name, Surname, and mothers anmes. I cannot prove it , but I don't thinkhe knew.

I think that's quite likely.

Did his two brothers exist ?

Craig

[corisande]

5 hours ago, Tawhiri said:

There is also a Peter Fegan, aged 8 and born in Dundee, Forfarshire, living in the Smyllum Orphanage with Matthew which would seem to match the family details given in Matthew Fagan's service record. Looking for other Fagan births in the St Andrews (Dundee) registration district in the same time frame produces a Peter Fagan born in 1892, and a James Fagan born in 1888. There are a total of nine Fagan births in this district between 1880 and 1901, the last being in 1900, with a run of closely spaced births starting in 1887.

Craig

That's your answer. They existed as Fagans too. I am pretty sure that is his brother Peter, who is a NOPK on the army enlistment form

[corisande]

3 hours ago, corisande said:

1886 marriage in ScotlandsPeople of Michael Fagan to Maggoe McNaughton in Dundee,

 

This marriage of his parents cross-checks with his Birth Cert and is solid fact.

The marriage alluded to in his 1915 marriage is fiction, and is not in ScotlandsPeople. I doubt that we can establish why he gave those names, but my guess would be that it was easier in those days to pull some names out of the air, rather than confess that you did no know and have "not known" on the Marriage Cert

[Tawhiri]

I've also subsequently found older brother James in the 1901 Scotland census in the same orphanage as Matthew and Peter. There is a James Fagan who attested with the Highland Light Infantry on 11 April 1906 with service number 5970. He states he was born in St Mary, Forfarshire, and his next of kin is given as his brother Peter Fagan.  I think that he is the same individual in the 1911 England census who is serving as a driver with the 92nd Battery of the Royal Field Artillery in India, who's birth place is also given as St Mary, Forfarshire.

In addition to the Militia Attestation record, parts of his service record survive as well, which suggests he also had the service number 101482 with the Highland Light Infantry, before transferring to the 54th Battery of the Royal Field Artillery with what looks like service number 47768.  Where it gets confusing is that there are also parts of a service record for a James Fagan, service number 2921, serving with the Royal Scots, with service towards engagement reckoned from 30 July 1914, mixed in with the former's record. The latter was killed in action on 5 December 1917. Reading their physical description though, the two men are almost identical in height and weight, so whether it's two separate men who's records have been mixed together, or the same man is unclear.

Edited to add that James Fagan, service number 2921, has a separate surviving service record, which again seems to contain bits and pieces from both James Fagan's service records. Born in Dundee, Forfarshire, and aged 23 when he attested in 1914, with supposedly no previous military service. His next of kin is given as brother Peter Fagan, living at 33 West Bothwell Street, Glasgow. A quick search on ScotlandsPeople also shows only one James Fagan birth in the Dundee area between 1885 and 1895, and that is Matthew's brother.

Edited 20 July , 2021 by Tawhiri

[ss002d6252]

This is James' service record
https://search-findmypast-co-uk.libezproxy.open.ac.uk/record?id=GBM%2FWO363-4%2F007274279%2F00781&parentid=GBM%2FWO363-4%2F7274279%2F48%2F781

 

 

Craig

[Leigh jones]

omg you guys are amazing this is totally blowing my mind, thank you so much, i have to be honest as i could not find a birth cert in norway i had come to the conclusion that his name had been Hansler instead of Hanslar  and my mind had wandered to him being german as it is a common german name and norway is a germanic speaking country, i thought he had perhaps changed his name to get away from the stigma of being german after the war had ended.

but after reading all this i am now once again wondering if you guys are all right and he was Matthew Fagan, i now just can not understand where he got the name from or why? though escaping marriage is a likely bet. i am going to read all of this with such interest in the morning and see what you bunch of sherlocks have come up with! 

honestly from the bottom of my heart this means so much and i am so gratefull to you all i could not do this, thank you.

[ss002d6252]

Just now, Leigh jones said:

honestly from the bottom of my heart this means so much and i am so gratefull to you all i could not do this, thank you.

I told you the forum could crack it 

Craig

[corisande]

Just now, ss002d6252 said:

I told you the forum could crack it 

 I don't think we are there yet 

[Leigh jones]

55 minutes ago, ss002d6252 said:

I told you the forum could crack it 

Craig

i am simply in awe at this all this in 1 day, i am excited to see what else you all find!

54 minutes ago, corisande said:

 I don't think we are there yet 

oh for sure but if you all got this far in 1 day i do not think it will take you to get the rest, its insane how good you all are!