Object identification

[Guest]

Hi Everyone,

I am hoping someone will be able to help me identify this object. It was reportedly captured from a Flammenwerfer at Rosieres on 9 August 1918. It was originally listed as being a helmet, it is too small for that, but I am at a loss for what it is, is anyone able to help?

Cameron

[ZIL]

It’s the metal cover on top of the cylinder to protect the valves etc.

Zil

[Baushawat]

On 19/07/2021 at 10:50, ZIL said:

It’s the metal cover on top of the cylinder to protect the valves etc.

I don't think it's that, the circular holes are extremely weird, and the overall shape doesn't match the top of a flamethrower tank.

I attached below a picture of a Kleif M.1912 preserved at Vienna's war museum. Here it's the early screw-on cover also used on the Kleif M.1914, but even the hinged version used on the Kleif M.1916 and Kleif M.1917 do not match the item showcased above. As for the Kleif M.1915 n/A (the a/A did not have a protective cover) it was much smaller as it covered only the manometer, the tank shape was radically different.

[Chasemuseum]

Don't know what it is but saw one being offerred for sale years ago without the straps and described as part of a gas mask which was clearly incorrect. From the paint and straps it looks very typical of late war German, whatever it is.

[MrEd]

*outside the box suggestion*
 

Could it be part of an animal gas mask or some other protection? It looks like it could go on a horses nose due to its shape and profile? Maybe the holes line up with nostrils? 

The shape of it is weird, if it was for a canister I would expect it to be uniformly round surely?

Could the clamping band around the bottom have been a mechanism to retain some sort of cloth ‘skirt’ or something? 
 

any dimensions? 

Edited 23 July , 2022 by MrEd

[Chasemuseum]

Don't think its for a horse. Horse masks are a very badly documented subject. I have no idea how many variations of patterns were produced by each nation but from available photos, there does not appear to be a lot of varieties for individual nations. I know of at least three German horse masks in Australia and all are exactly the same.

Example of a German horse mask

 

British horse gas mask (I have handled one of these - they are just a cloth bag that can be rolled up on noseband of the bridle halter.)

 

French horse gas masks

 

 

 

[MrEd]

6 minutes ago, Chasemuseum said:

Don't think its for a horse. Horse masks are a very badly documented subject. I have no idea how many variations of patterns were produced by each nation but from available photos, there does not appear to be a lot of varieties for individual nations. I know of at least three German horse masks in Australia and all are exactly the same.

Example of a German horse mask

 

British horse gas mask (I have handled one of these - they are just a cloth bag that can be rolled up on noseband of the bridle halter.)

 

French horse gas masks

 

 

 

Okay, not a horse gas mask then - I was just looking at the shape and wondering what it could be for. 
Curious item, that definitely strapped around something - no clue what though 

[Jrmh]

Motorcycle headlight cover for reduced brightness?

[JMB1943]

Cameron,

As Mr Ed has commented, it certainly looks like it could be for an animal.

Some dimensions (weight/ height/ width /depth; length of webbing straps etc) would probably help.

Regards,

JMB

[Jrmh]

Similar http://images.goldbergauctions.com/php/lot_auc.php?site=1&sale=40&lot=385

 

 

Edited 25 July , 2022 by Jrmh

[AOK4]

5 minutes ago, Jrmh said:

Similar http://images.goldbergauctions.com/php/lot_auc.php?site=1&sale=40&lot=385

 

The item on the B/W picture is not the same as the item for sale...

Edited 25 July , 2022 by AOK4

[Jrmh]

Should be now, just edited it

[AOK4]

59 minutes ago, Jrmh said:

Should be now, just edited it

???

What I'm saying is that the object for sale is NOT the object on the B/W picture (or any picture of horse gas masks online). It is something completely different.

The openings with the smaller holes are also definitely no gas mask filters nor can filters be attached there.

[Chasemuseum]

The photo below is a WW2 US Army horse gas mask, not WW1.

Like the German WW2 horse gas mask, the designs are vastly improved on the WW1 models.

Its like comparing 1915 soldier's gas masks to a WW2 gasmask - the technology has advanced so far that they are unrecognisable as a comparison.

[Chasemuseum]

Additional photos of German WW1 animal masks

Dog mask, Australian War Memorial Canberra, my photo April 2015

Horse mask, Shrine of Remembrance Melbourne, my photos 2019

 

[MrEd]

Another out of the box thought

 

but could it be for administering anaesthetic agents to a horse? Deliver the anaesthetic gas through that central spigot and the 2 round holes are actually exhalation valves (rather than inhalation).

strap it to the horses nose, deliver anaesthetic or what ever respiratory stuff you want, do what you need to do and then take it off again

here is a link with some photos of modern stuff that looks similar, and a photo of a modern horse breathing mask, you can see the similarities.

I also wonder, if the above is the case, whether it is just ‘of the time’ but not necessarily a piece of military or frontline used equipment? 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/gallery/2020/dec/11/masked-horses-photographs-by-tim-flach-in-pictures

 

 

 

 

Edited 26 July , 2022 by MrEd

[charlie962]

Could it be to stop horses cribbing or biting each other during transport?

[le ulhan]

Extraordinary, never seen such a mask, thank you for presenting this rare mask to us..

[Chasemuseum]

This seems much more plausible. The spigot hole is too small for a horse to either inhale or exhale for an extended period and if used as a gasmask it would interfere with the horses mouth and the correct use if the bit to control the horse while working. The paint colour and style of the straps are indicative of WW1 German. With three similar masks known (sorry I can't find the photos of the one that came up for sale over 5 years ago) its definitely more than a one off prototype. Unfortunately all three are devoid of manufacturer's markings or date stamps. 

[MrEd]

49 minutes ago, Chasemuseum said:

This seems much more plausible. The spigot hole is too small for a horse to either inhale or exhale for an extended period and if used as a gasmask it would interfere with the horses mouth and the correct use if the bit to control the horse while working. The paint colour and style of the straps are indicative of WW1 German. With three similar masks known (sorry I can't find the photos of the one that came up for sale over 5 years ago) its definitely more than a one off prototype. Unfortunately all three are devoid of manufacturer's markings or date stamps. 

which theory is more plausible? 

[Chasemuseum]

Quote

Quote

which theory is more plausible?

 

 

The concept that this is a veterinary instrument to administer anaesthetic to a horse.

 

I expect that the horse is primarily breathing in and out through the two large ports, which would have originally been fitted with a cotton gauze or similar, to slow the rate of air movement, into and out of the mask, while an anaesthetic vapour is delivered through a tube connected to the small diameter metal tube.

 

 

 

 

 

[MrEd]

Oh okay, yes that what I think to

[mancpal]

Wouldn’t the RCVS archive hold a photo of a similar device, even if they don’t possess a physical example?

Of course, it may not be British or indeed equine.

Whatever the truth I’m enjoying the thread.

Simon

Edited 27 July , 2022 by mancpal
Missed a letter out