10 Bn London Regiment

[SunDodginDoc]

My Wife's Grandfather William George Taylor 423169 was killed at or around Acheit-le-Petit 0n 12 May 17, and is buried ay Buissy.  We have this picture we think includes him. I'm unsure as the cap badge doesn't seem to match and we have no other pictures of him which we can match. Can anyone confirm the likely regiment? It looks as if this might be F Company (F.Co). Was there such a company? My wife's family was not one for collecting ephemera so this is unlikely to be a random picture picked up somewhere, and it refers to 'Will' on the back. I have only been able to find his medal card, and I have the 10th's War Diary.

Whilst I'm never going to say with confidence that he is in the picture, I'm going to work on the balance of prababilities one way or another).

[ss002d6252]

According to the medal rolls his only service in France was with 10th Bn - from 5 Feb 1917 to 12 Mat 1917.

Craig

[ss002d6252]

In respect of the companies A-G was used before a 8 company battalions changed to a 4 company structure. Some did use different numbering but after the 4 company structure most were 1-4, A-D or W-Z.

Craig

[MaxD]

As you have observed, cap badge doesn't look anything like that that 2/10 London Regt (his battalion) would wear.  Not guessing though, too many heffalump traps!

 

MaxD

 

Edited 17 July , 2021 by MaxD

[Moonraker]

The photograph and the back of the postcard remind me of many cards sent to friends and relatives by soldiers in prewar summer camps in England- the marquee, potato peeling. And the sergeant on the right looks rather old for active service. I'm not convinced that yours shows a scene in France . It was not uncommon for a soldier to have a number of the same postcard to send at later dates.

[FROGSMILE]

It looks more like a pre war TF annual summer training camp under canvas to me.  The TF generally speaking did not change to the 4-company organisation until 1915. Not only has a loaf of bread been marked F Co. (a common abbreviation for company back then), but so has at least one of the metal ‘dixies’ (cooking pots).  I don’t think the cap badge is 10th London’s (Paddington Rifles), but he might well have been with a different unit of the London Regiment pre war.

Edited 17 July , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[ss002d6252]

His war gratuity gives 12 months or less war time service at the point of his death in May 1917.

With the reference to F Co I suspect,  if it is him, then it's likely prewar.

Craig 

[SunDodginDoc]

Thanks, everyone. So unlikely that he is in the picture The responses then lead me to ask - where does one find medal rolls and information on gratuities? If his records weren't 'burnt' should they appear in a search on the National Archives?

I know - so many questions!

[clk]

Hi SunDodginDoc,

2 hours ago, SunDodginDoc said:

where does one find medal rolls and information on gratuities?

The medal rolls and Soldiers Effects record (where the amount of War Gratuity paid is shown as written in red) are available on Ancestry. The relevant links are here and here. In the absence of a surviving service record, the amount can often be used to back calculate an approximate date of when a man 'signed up' as it is generally a reflection of rank and time served prior to death. Craig (ss002d6252) is the resident Forum expert, and more detail can be found on his micro site - see the link in his signature. However, in your case it isn't particularly helpful, as the amount paid is the minimum entitlement for a man who had any length of overseas service of 12 months, or less.

It might be possible though to firm up a probable enlistment date by looking for papers for near number 2/10th Battalion men. For example 423157 Mason and 423166 Farmery both enlisted on 14.10.1916. Further sampling would be a good thing.

Prior to being moved to his current resting place the CWGC records indicate that William was originally buried at map reference 57c.C.17.c.8.1 which is likely to be close to where he originally fell. If you use that map reference in this website it should show you where that was. Available as free downloads from the National Archive you could then cross reference to the Battalion War Diary and Brigade HQ War Diary to see if they can add any context to the likely circumstances of his death.

If you would like an image of his gravestone, it looks like the good folk at British War Graves would be able to provide you with one on a free of charge basis - link.

Regards
Chris

Edit:
I neglected to say that the dates in the medal roll indicate his overseas service and don't reflect prior home service (training, etc)

Edited 17 July , 2021 by clk

[PRC]

8 hours ago, SunDodginDoc said:

My Wife's Grandfather William George Taylor 423169

Service number 423169 came from the block allocated to the 10th Battalions of the London Regiment as part of the Territorial Force renumbering in early 1917 – see https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/a-soldiers-life-1914-1918/renumbering-of-the-territorial-force-in-1917/renumbering-the-tf-infantry-in-1917/

The Territorial Force renumbering can make it hard to work out earlier service, particularly if like William there are no surviving service records. The normal option of looking with men with nearby service numbers to see if there are patterns to their army career won’t necessarily be helpful, with one exception.

One of the methodologies used at the time to issue the new numbers was to go by the previous order of enlistment – as witnessed by the soldiers original service number. So to see if that applied here I took a look at nearby service numbers.

423164 Thomas Stevens was originally 5772 and subsequently 368098. (Medal Index Card)

423166 William Parr Farmery has surviving service records. He was conscripted into the 2/10th London Regiment on the 14th October 1916 and initially received service number 5774. A married man, aged 35 and a Gas Fitters Mate by trade, he lived in East Ham. He landed in France on the 4th February 1917 along with the rest of the Battalion when it went overseas. His Disciplinary sheet shows him to be in “A” Company.

423184 John Henry Hollands has no surviving service records, but he died in France on the 11th May 1917 serving with the 2/10. His CWGC webpage shows the 423184 number. But like many of the Territorial Force men who died in the months after the new numbers were issued, he was probably still wearing his old ID tag. His original grave marker shows his service number as 5803 – see the Grave Registration Report on his CWGC webpage https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/564919/JOHN HENRY HOLLANDS/

(Unfortunately though there was a mix up regarding service numbers in the documents for William George Taylor on his CWGC webpage – the original grave marker on the battlefield gave his number as 423202 and this was corrected – it doesn’t give his old four digit number).

423186 Charles Oliver was conscripted on the 16th October 1916 and posted to the 10th Reserve Battalion with service number 5805. He was attached to the 26th Training Reserve Board(?) on the 2nd December 1916 and then the H.A.C. Depot on the 20th December 1916. Moved to the the Class W Reserve in April 1917, he was recalled in June 1918.

So looks roughly like the old numbers mapped across to the new numbers in order, although some of the October 1916 conscripts must have fallen by the wayside before the new numbers were issued.

So if what they are telling us is that these men were conscripted in October 1916, during a notoriously wet autumn, and went to France at the start of February 1917, it doesn’t seem likely that the group photograph of men in shirt sleeves represents any of them.

Hope that helps,

Peter

[Woodnbits]

Maybe?

 

FMP has a service record for a William Taylor 5822/495989 within this record is a single page which doesn’t seem to fit in with the man, he survived the war and was demobbed 12/09/1919.

 

https://www.findmypast.co.uk/transcript?id=GBM%2FWO363-4%2F7319888%2F12%2F292

 

Disregarding the soldiers numbers.

 

There is a crossed out number 42320?

William George Taylor age 36 2/10th Bn London Regiment

Ships Boiler Maker

Wife 1 Beck/Back Lane, Colchester.

France 05/02/1917 ties in with medal roll info from above.

Killed in action – Field 12/05/1917 matches CWGC

Courtesy of Findmypast

 

Tim

[MaxD]

 

22 minutes ago, Woodnbits said:

There is a crossed out number 42320?

The concentration report has WG Taylor's number as 423202, probably adds nothing to the discussion except to show that there were perhaps more than one mix up of numbers?

 

MaxD

[SunDodginDoc]

I'm really grateful to everyone for the information and knowledge theye imparted.  @PRC the gratuity shows his original number was 5777 so tha ties in with what you proposed. @clk I've noted your guidance and will keep it as an aide-emoir. @Woodnbits sorry - the wrong Talor even thogh they both died on the same day. 

I plotted William's original burial site on the map of May 1917 on the National Library of Scotland site (fascinated by the precision of those references) and I'll take my wife there when we can. It's disappointing that we have all this peripheral info andnot his core records, but I do understand what may have happened to them.

Thanks again, everyone!