Unknown Medal

[LuckyB]

1st post on here, so apologies if this is in the wrong place or I should have introduced myself elsewhere before asking for help

Hopefully someone can help identify this medal. I volunteer at my local museum and we recently were given a donation of a collection of British and Commonwealth WW1 regimental badges and a few other items including this medal. It is plain on the rear with no manufacture or inscription, it looks foreign (French?)

The collection was from a British WW1 medic and we believe the badges were given to him by injured soldiers that he had treated, which is quite poignant when you think of the story that must be behind each one. Some of the other items are definitely the medic’s personal items, so the medal may have been given to him by a wounded soldier or actually awarded to him.

Any help would be much appreciated

Thank You

[Gardenerbill]

Hi LuckyB,

welcome to the forum, sorry I can't help identify your medal but I thought I would give your post a nudge and hopefully one of the medal experts will come along and help.

[TEW]

Any details on the medic available?

Name, number. RAMC I assume?

TEW

[edwin astill]

The engraving on the flags seem to indicate a tricolour.  Could also be Belgian?

 

Edwin 

[LuckyB]

Thanks TEW/Edwin, I thought the medal would be reasonably easy to identify, but I'm really struggling, the ribbon colours and style suggests French or Dutch perhaps but Belgian is a possibility, the presence of a crown may go against French, but fingers crossed for someone who knows more about these things to view the post. 

I was planning to post a question on the best way to track down some more details on the individual so I might as well do it here, please move it to a more appropriate part of the forum if you think it would get more traction elsewhere. I would really like to get a summary of his service so that if we display the collection we can add some background.

His name was William Paul, in amongst the collection were a pair of sergeant's strips and a pair of sleeve rank crowns, so I think he may have been a staff or sergeant major. There were also several pairs of RAMC shoulder titles so I think it’s safe to assume it was the RAMC that he served in. The collection was handed in by a grandchild who lives in central Scotland so there is probably a Scottish connection. Unfortunately, we don't any more details on him, I've made some tentative attempts at tracking him down on a few of the websites but without subscriptions I'm a bit limited and it all gets very confusing!

On the Forces War Records UK and British Army Service Records websites there is a couple of possibilities, if we assume he was Scottish, from the BASR,  there one born 1896 (Lanarkshire) and another in 1870 (Dunbartonshire). I thought the Lanarkshire one was probably too young to make sergeant (service No 1413) he doesn’t appear on FWR, the Dunbartonshire one looked more likely, his service number was 93660 (some of the records has it as 60? Presumably a truncation?) on FWR there are 4 entries for him.

1909 W Paul, Service No 60, Staff Serjeant

1914 W Paul, Service No 60, Staff Sergeant

1914 William Paul, Service No 93660, Transport Warrant Officer Class 1 (given he is a Sgt Major in 1918 this seems strange?)

1918 W A Paul, Service No 93660, Sergeant Major (the A stands for Alexander from the British Army Service Records)

If he is not Scottish, then there are another couple of possibilities from BASR/FWR

William James Paul born 1895 Yorkshire, Service No 3296, 546230 Sergeant 1914 (maybe Lanarkshire William Paul was not too young to be a Sergeant after all??)

William Paul Service No 44301 Serjeant/Staff Sergeant 1914

There was no paper work or other medals with the collection but there was a trench art letter opener inscribed YPERS 1916, a Canadian soldier’s jacknife with marlin spike (marked M&D CANADA 1915, this was inscribed W. PAUL, so perhaps another gift?) and the regimental badges where a mix of Scottish, Irish, English, Welsh, Canadian and Australian and a few other items.

I’m hoping to get some more info from the grandchild but I’m not sure when I’ll be able to do that. I’m assuming he survived the war and returned/went to live in Scotland hence why his grandchild is there but that is an assumption at this stage.

As you can see I'm a novice at this, so any help would be gratefully received!

[DavidOwen]

Is there anything on the reverse?

You could trawl through the ribbons here (tried Belgium & France but didn't see a match) https://www.medals.org.uk/

[DavidOwen]

93660 William Alexander Paul RAMC Quartermaster (joining originally pre-war as service number 60) some records survive at FMP Link Rank given as Sergeant Major

Address 1 Holmbank Avenue, Shawlands, Glasgow.

[LuckyB]

Nothing on the rear I'm afraid, no inscription or manufacturing marks, the ribbon website will keep my busy!

[TEW]

Contacting the Grandchild sounds fairly crucial in order to pin down which William Paul he is. A connection to EG. Shawlands should be known or not. DOB, middle names etc.

As he clearly collected items along the way hopefully the Sgt. Stripes are not part of his 'collected items'.

TEW

[Alisonmallen62]

I wonder if it isn’t a military medal but perhaps something like Belgian, French ,Luxembourg medical award? 

[Medaler]

Looks very like a French Franco-Prussian war medal to me. Not quite the same, granted......

[Jim Strawbridge]

That type of crown is unusual and reminds me of coins of Naples/Sicily.

[LuckyB]

Thanks for the replies so far, that French Franco-Prussian medal does indeed looks very similar, the comment on the crown is a good one as well, the crown type (7 points with baubles) was used as a coronet for a baron in Italy (and Netherlands), also the crown suggests the issuing country had a royal family at time of issue so that probably rules out France. Given the ribbon colours then, it's suggesting it might be Dutch. I'm probably wrong though!

 

I'll let you know how I get on with tracking down the medic's background

 

[LuckyB]

On 18/07/2021 at 14:27, DavidOwen said:

93660 William Alexander Paul RAMC Quartermaster (joining originally pre-war as service number 60) some records survive at FMP Link Rank given as Sergeant Major

Address 1 Holmbank Avenue, Shawlands, Glasgow.

Sorry David I missed this post, was the address and details from the FMP records?  

[DavidOwen]

Yes it was.

[edwin astill]

The similarity with the French Franco-Prussian war medal posted above suggests strongly that the one in question belongs to the same stable of awards. 

Edwin

[TEW]

The attestation for 93660 says- Born in parish of Row (now Rhu) Dunbartonshire. Working as a Warehouseman and residing in Walton St. Shawlands in 1908.

NOK is later given as Isobella Nicol Paul of Holmbank Ave, Shawlands.

Only service seems to be Salonica.

TEW

[LuckyB]

I'm still trying to contact the relatives so no update on our man yet, however I had a close look at the back of the medal and there is a very feint name scratched on it, I'm not sure how I missed it before. It did required strong side lighting and a magnifying glass and it took a while to make out what it was, so apologies for the lack of photo. The inscription seems to read W. PIPE 1st Roy'Fus I'm assuming this is the 1st Royal Fusiliers, I don't know if this helps in anyway to identify the medal but at least it gives me an excuse to bump the thread.

[charlie962]

15613 Walter John Pipe of the 1st Royal Fusiliers died 14/7/15 and is buried Lijssenthoek Military Cemetery

[David Wass]

On 31/07/2021 at 15:38, LuckyB said:

I'm still trying to contact the relatives so no update on our man yet, however I had a close look at the back of the medal and there is a very feint name scratched on it, I'm not sure how I missed it before. It did required strong side lighting and a magnifying glass and it took a while to make out what it was, so apologies for the lack of photo. The inscription seems to read W. PIPE 1st Roy'Fus I'm assuming this is the 1st Royal Fusiliers, I don't know if this helps in anyway to identify the medal but at least it gives me an excuse to bump the thread.

 

On 31/07/2021 at 15:38, LuckyB said:

I'm still trying to contact the relatives so no update on our man yet, however I had a close look at the back of the medal and there is a very feint name scratched on it, I'm not sure how I missed it before. It did required strong side lighting and a magnifying glass and it took a while to make out what it was, so apologies for the lack of photo. The inscription seems to read W. PIPE 1st Roy'Fus I'm assuming this is the 1st Royal Fusiliers, I don't know if this helps in anyway to identify the medal but at least it gives me an excuse to bump the thread.

I have the British war medal and Victory medal to Walter Pipe

Just now, David Wass said:

 

I have the British war medal and Victory medal to Walter Pipe

I assume you have his 1914 star?

 

On 31/07/2021 at 15:38, LuckyB said:

I'm still trying to contact the relatives so no update on our man yet, however I had a close look at the back of the medal and there is a very feint name scratched on it, I'm not sure how I missed it before. It did required strong side lighting and a magnifying glass and it took a while to make out what it was, so apologies for the lack of photo. The inscription seems to read W. PIPE 1st Roy'Fus I'm assuming this is the 1st Royal Fusiliers, I don't know if this helps in anyway to identify the medal but at least it gives me an excuse to bump the thread.

 

Just now, David Wass said:

 

I have the British war medal and Victory medal to Walter Pipe

 

[Les owens]

Hi I have just come across this while researching my wife’s family. I think that the Iink is William Paul from bo’ness who was a ww1 medic who them became  the St. John’s ambulance commandant.The medals went missing after he died.It would be great if you could advise where the medals are currently and if they could be viewed by his grandson, Thomas Black.I have more information on William Paul if you would like , please email me.

[tankengine888]

6 hours ago, Les owens said:

Hi I have just come across this while researching my wife’s family. I think that the Iink is William Paul from bo’ness who was a ww1 medic who them became  the St. John’s ambulance commandant.The medals went missing after he died.It would be great if you could advise where the medals are currently and if they could be viewed by his grandson, Thomas Black.I have more information on William Paul if you would like , please email me.

Hello there and welcome to the forum!
This information might please the OP, though they have not been on in a year and (nearly) two months, a ping will alert them but I doubt they'll see/acknowledge it. @LuckyB
Good to see that William Paul isn't forgotten.

Regards,
Zidane.

Edited 28 February , 2023 by tankengine888

[Fiona Paul Hernandez]

Hello All …. I just stumbled across this article and I’m wondering if this could possibly be my Great Grandfather.  He was medic in WWI and lived in later years in the Shawlands area of Glasgow.  I have a signed and framed letter from Winston Churchill commending him on his valour.  His son, my Grandfather also fought 1917-1918 as a rifleman for the Caledonian Highlanders and I have his George Medal for going out on the frontline and saving his injured commander from German gunfire.

[Matlock1418]

22 hours ago, Fiona Paul Hernandez said:

Hello All …. I just stumbled across this article and I’m wondering if this could possibly be my Great Grandfather.  He was medic in WWI and lived in later years in the Shawlands area of Glasgow.  I have a signed and framed letter from Winston Churchill commending him on his valour.  His son, my Grandfather also fought 1917-1918 as a rifleman for the Caledonian Highlanders and I have his George Medal for going out on the frontline and saving his injured commander from German gunfire.

Hi Fiona,

Welcome to GWF.  Its always good to have new members.

Please don't take the following the wrong way but you have rather left me [possibly a few of us] with a bit of a puzzle.

Who are you talking about?

• Who was your GGF?
• Who was your GF?

Furthermore to whom are the following points you have mentioned linked?

• Are you sure about the Caladonian Highlanders? = They are coming up as a more modern pipe band. - Possibly the Cameron Highlanders??
• And are you sure it's the George Medal = that's a 1940 onwards award and awarded for bravery not in the face of the enemy - Possibly a Military Medal?

We would love to assist you but we probably do need you to please check your info and/or to provide some more biographical details [which can be very helpful] and/or military details if you can.  If you have a medal(s) then military details should usually be on the back or on the rim - numbers are particularly useful.

You can post document images or photos into this thread if it might assist you/us [please just acknowledge/cite where you got them if their not from your own property/collection]

In hope.

M

[Fiona Paul Hernandez]

Sorry for the misleading information…

 

My GGF was William Alexander Paul who was a Sergeant Major in the RAMC (service # 93660).

My GF was also William Alexander Paul who was a rifleman with the Cameronians (not the Caledonians - my bad)!  And yes it was a Military Medal (now in a safe being held for my son in NJ, USA).  Military Medal given (1918) for going onto the frontline, under German fire, to save his sergeant who had been shot.  Then returning out a second time to retrieve a machine gun that the sergeant was using and that had been left behind and not wanting the enemy to get hold of it.

I never met my GGF and my GF never, ever said a word about his time fighting.  We know the above information from a letter sent back to Glasgow from a fellow Cameronian who knew our family and also knew that my GF would tell no one what had happened.  I have a copy of the letter somewhere.

 

I did find the “letter” from W.Churchill and have attached it.  It may show upside down (I have no idea why?)

I do hope this further information provides further clarity.

 

fiona.