8th South Staffordshire information needed

[Polly]

I'm looking into my mothers relative Ernest Louis Brosinovich who enlisted as Eric Ernest 31815 with the 8th South Staffordshire regiment when he was just 14, only for his true identity to unravel when he died and his mother was contacted as next of kin. 

Does anyone have access to the war diary for the day he died or leading up to his death 16 May 1917 (France) where he might be mentioned, I would also love to see any photos of the 8th South Staffordshire reg.

Also would I be right in saying his body hasn't been located as no grave although mentioned on Arras Memorial? Does anyone know if its possible to upload DNA so that he can be identified if found?

Thank you for any info you can provide, Polly

 

[Matlock1418]

Hi Polly,

Welcome to GWF

Here's the War Diary - free to download from the National Archives, after free registration http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7352936

It is very unlikely he will be mentioned by name.

Good luck with your research

:-) M

[Polly]

Thank you so much for your super fast response!

 

[mancpal]

If he is commemorated on the Arras Memorial  it is not a certainty that his remains weren't recovered. There are countless  headstones beneath which an 'unknown ' soldier lies.. If his remains were discovered but with no specific identity (other than British soldier) he would have received a burial though his name would appear on the Memorial rather than on a specific headstone. That said, the number of unidentified soldiers within the confines of cemeteries compared to the number who were lost hardly compares.

 

Simon

[Swinesheadvillage]

Hi Polly

Again, welcome to the forum

From the FAQ on the CWGC website:-

Where human remains are discovered in former battlefield areas during farming, building work or land developments the local police will confirm that they are First or Second World War casualties. The CWGC will then coordinate with the relevant military authorities who will carry out any investigation as to identity. 

In the vast majority of cases from the First World War period it is not possible to establish the identity of the casualty. However, occasionally artefacts found with the remains, together with historical information, might suggest that the remains belong to a particular regiment/unit or a named individual. Every effort is then made by the military authorities to trace present day relatives and, where appropriate carry out DNA.

Whether identification is successful or not, the CWGC will support the relevant authority in making arrangements for a military burial with full honours in a CWGC cemetery close to where they were found. The grave will be marked and cared for by the CWGC in perpetuity.

https://www.cwgc.org/frequently-asked-questions/

As an aside Eric Louis Ernest Brosinovich (I cant find a consistency of forename staging other than birth records and 1911 census)  has an intriguing background. Born to Ernest Victor and Edith Lucy (nee Wagstaff) in July 1900 in Odessa, then Russia. Father dies 8 Feb 1909 in Odessa. Eric appears then to be found in the 1911 census as an 'inmate' aged 10 at the London Orphan Asylum, born Odessa, Russia, his nationality given as Russian.

https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=GBC%2F1911%2FRG14%2F07739%2F0150&parentid=GBC%2F1911%2FRG14%2F07739%2F0150%2F27

There is a photo of his panel list here

https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/124936677/ernest-louis_eric-brosinovich/photo

His soldiers effects statement has an eligibility to a gratuity of £3, which would equate to service of 12 months or less, meaning he signed up at 16, but still well underage.

Also commemorated is 22 yr old, Ernest Jackson L/13555:-

https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/692381/ERNEST JACKSON/

CWGC has not questioned his assumed name, but in additional information, Ernest Jackson's mother is stated as Florence Brosenovitch. Florence appears to be the wife of Henry (Enrico) Brosinovich, who was born, Tynemouth, 1874.

The 1901 census has Florence living as daughter in law of Vittoria and Isabela (Henry's parents) with son (born 1893) Ernest L. This possibly makes L/13555 Jackson, Ernest Louis Brosinovich, born 1st quarter 1893, Camberwell.

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/7814/images/LNDRG13_560_562-0306?treeid=&personid=&rc=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=Tcr431&_phstart=successSource&pId=4275399

The 1881 census has Henry, son of Vittoria and Isabela, living alongside his brother, Ernest, Eric Louis's father. So potentially another family member to commemorate.

Hope this helps somewhat

Kind Regards

 

Derek

[Matlock1418]

10 hours ago, Swinesheadvillage said:

Also commemorated is 22 yr old, Ernest Jackson L/13555:-

https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/692381/ERNEST JACKSON/

CWGC has not questioned his assumed name, but in additional information, Ernest Jackson's mother is stated as Florence Brosenovitch. Florence appears to be the wife of Henry (Enrico) Brosinovich, who was born, Tynemouth, 1874.

Neither did the Ministry of Pensions = Pension Index Cards at WFA/Fold3 for Pte. Ernest JACKSON, 13555, Royal Fusiliers

Mother. Mrs F. Brosinovitch got a 5/- per week dependant's pension award under Article 21-1c of the Royal Warrant - address: 80 Taunton Road, Lee SE12 [same address as CWGC record for her]

:-) M

Edited 27 July , 2021 by Matlock1418

[corisande]

His birth is noted on this website - click

[Polly]

 

Thank you Simon and also Derek for your responses. Derek thank you for looking into the detail. You are very right with all your info a number of my Brosinovich relatives served under fake names. I'm not clear as to why they chose to do this! Enrico was my mother's great grandfather and L/13555 Jackson, Ernest Louis Brosinovich, born 1st quarter 1893, Camberwell was Olga (my mother grandmother) brother.

 

 

 

[PRC]

Hi @Polly and a very belated welcome to the forum

The Commonwealth War Graves Commission, (CWGC), website lists 17 other men of the 8th Battalion, South Staffordshire Regiment, as having died on the 16th May 1917.

(Image courtesy Geoffs Search Engine).

12 of them are like Lance Corporal 31815 Ernest Louis Eric Brosinovich and have no known grave, being remembered on the Arras Memroial.

Of the other five:-

Private 30576 Robert Allen is recorded as Killed in Action and has a known Grave at Brown’s Copse Cemetery, Rouex. He is in Grave III.C.27.

However the CWGC webpage for that Cemetery tells us that isn’t where he was originally buried.

Cemetery History information.

Roeux was built over a system of caves which helped to make its capture in 1917 exceptionally difficult. It was attacked by the 9th (Scottish) Division without success on 12 April. The chemical works close to the railway station were taken by the 51st (Highland) Division on 22 April and after incessant fighting, the village was cleared by the same Division on 14 May. The chemical works were lost again and retaken on 16 May. The Germans re-entered the village at the end of March 1918, and it was finally retaken by the 51st Division on the following 26 August.

The cemetery is named from a small copse (the Bois Rossignol) on the east side. Plots I to IV are composed almost entirely of graves cleared from the battlefield in the summer of 1917. Plots V to VIII were made after the Armistice when 850 graves were brought in from a wide area north and east of Arras. https://www.cwgc.org/visit-us/find-cemeteries-memorials/cemetery-details/62800/BROWN'S COPSE CEMETERY, ROEUX/

Private 20579 George H Hall is also recorded as Killed in Action and has a known Grave at Brown’s Copse Cemetery, Rouex. He is in Grave III.C.48 so appears to be another one recovered from the battlefield in the summer of 1917.

Private 43119 Ernest Jesson is also recorded as Killed in Action and has a known Grave at Brown’s Copse Cemetery, Rouex. He is in Grave III.A.35.

Private 32270 Sydney Mather is also recorded as Killed in Action and has a known Grave at Brown’s Copse Cemetery, Rouex. He is in Grave I.A.14.

Corporal 201659 William Millward is also recorded as Killed in Action and has a known Grave at Brown’s Copse Cemetery, Rouex. He is in Grave III.A.44. (The edition of the Walsall Observer and South Staffordshire Chronicle dated 23rd June 1917 has a picture of him, with the caption already describing him as Killed in Action.)

All five men appear to have been recovered from the battlefield in the summer of 1917. It’s too small a sample to read much into it, but none of them appear to have generated a missing person enquiry to the International Committee of the Red Cross. (There is no obvious missing person enquiry for Ernest Brosinovich or Eric Ernest either).

When the CWGC, (or its’ fore-runner the Imperial War Graves Commission) took over responsibility for maintaining Great War era war graves in the 1920's, Grave Registers were prepared. The relevant pages of the original document can be seen as an attachment on the webpages for those five men named – for example this comes from the CWGC webpage for Ernest Jesson :-

(Image courtesy of the Commonwealth War Graves Commission)

For all five their names appear in pages of the Grave Register which shows very few instances of Unknown British Soldiers – even when that crops up the unit is known. Happening just a few shorts weeks after the action that had claimed their lives, the retrieval from the battlefield in the summer of 1917 must have been a relatively simple task. The area would be fought over twice more in 1918 and so by the time battlefield recovery of the dead resumed in earnest post-war, even if anything could be found it was seldom identifiable as a named individual.

A Casualty List featuring all bar one of the names, (Naylor), who the CWGC records as having died appeared in the edition of the Birmingham Daily Post, dated Saturday, June 23, 1917. Note the next of kin of Lance Corporal 31815 E. Ernest was shown as then living in Clapham, S.W. London.

(Image courtesy FindMyPast).

10 hours ago, Swinesheadvillage said:

Eric appears then to be found in the 1911 census as an 'inmate' aged 10 at the London Orphan Asylum, born Odessa, Russia, his nationality given as Russian.

As well as his age therein lies another reason for why this young man may have changed his name. There was an agreement between the Allies not to poach each others nationals. Thus nationals of countries like France, Italy, Portugal, etc, as well as Russia were expected to register with the offices of the country of their nationality and return to that country when mobilised for Military service. Only when the Bolshevik Government signed a separate peace with Germany early 1918 did Russians become fair game as far as conscription was concerned.

Hope that’s of interest,
Peter

 

 

 

Birmingham Daily Post 23 June 1917 page 9 Casualty List sourced FMP.pdf