George and Edward Howe

[staffordshire8th]

Looking into two ancestors (brothers) the above born Cheadle Staffs 1886 & 1893 possibly in North staffs regt 

George poss (18998) NSR but Edward ? unsure his son named Alfred Ostend Howe born Feb 1915.

any help forthcoming will be most appreciated 

 

[MaxD]

George's record on Findmypast:

British Army Service Records 1914-1920 Image | findmypast.co.uk

MaxD

[PRC]

1 hour ago, staffordshire8th said:

Thread title George and Edward Howe

Looking into two ancestors (brothers) the above born Cheadle Staffs 1886 & 1893 possibly in North staffs regt 

George poss (18998) NSR but Edward ? unsure his son named Alfred Ostend Howe born Feb 1915.

 

Hi,

I tried working back from Alfred Ostend Howe, born February 1915, as that seemed to be the thing you had some certainty about.

The birth of an Alfred O Howe was registered in the Stoke on Trent District of Staffordshire in the January to March quarter, (Q1), of 1915. Mothers’ maiden name was Crutchley.

The only likely combination I can see potentially of a marriage in England & Wales of a male Howe to an unmarried female Crutchley looks to have occurred in the Market Drayton District of Shropshire in the April to June quarter, (Q2), of 1899. The civil marriage records of the time published by the General Registrars Office didn’t cross reference who married who, but as there are usually no more than two marriages on each page of each Districts register, it’s possible to work out that a James William Howe married either a Mary Ellen Crutchley or an Elizabeth Ferrington.

Going back to the Birth Registers for England & Wales and looking for children registered with the surname Howe, mothers’ maiden name Crutchley, I can see 7 potential matches, (bearing in mind that pre September 1911 it’s not always straightforward to establish mothers’ maiden name), all in the West Midlands area between 1903 and 1918.

Woverhampton District
Q4 1903 …………………..Gladys Marian J

Leek District
Q3 1911…………………..Lilian C.

Wolverhampton District
Q4 1912……………………Kenneth J C

Stoke on Trent District
Q2 1913…………………….Annie
Q1 1915 ……………………..Alfred O

Wolverhampton District
Q3 1916…………………….Cyril W T

Nantwich District
Q1 1918…………………….Edith A R

James William Howe (aged 34, a Brass Drawer, born Wolverhampton), and his wife of 12 years Mary Ellen Howe, (aged 33, born Shropshire) were recorded living at 20, Swan Bank, Penn, Wolverhampton on the 1911 Census of England & Wales. So far the couple have had two children, both still alive and both still living with them. As well as the 10 year old Gwendolen F L, born Penn, there is also a 7 year old Gladys M.J., born Penn.

Alfred O Howe, born 8th February 1915, turns up on the 1939 Register as head of his own household at 33 Alexandra Street, Crewe. But there is a James W Howe born 16th March 1877 recorded as the first person in the household at 61 Swan Bank, Wolverhampton. Living with him is (probably) wife Mary E, (dob 13/06/1877) and (probably) three unmarried children – Gwendoline F. L (d.o.b 05/10/1900), Kenneth James C, (d.o.b. 27/12/1912) and Cyril W.T. (d.o.b. 24/05/1916). (The 1939 Register doesn’t explicitly state relationships amongst household members).

Of course there could be another marriage of a Howe to a Crutchley that took place outside England & Wales, or there could be an admin error in the way the GRO reported the marriages or even the birth of Alfred.

Coming at it the other way, there are two potential births for a George Howe in the Cheadle District in roughly the right time frame, but both were registered in the October to December quarter, (Q4), of 1887.

George Hilarion Howe, mothers maiden name Day.
George Percy Howe, mothers maiden name Titley.

But there is no Edward Howe whose birth was registered in the Cheadle District in the period 1891 – 1895.

BTW – the George Howe who was Private 18998 is shown as 22 years and 44 days old when he took his medical at Longton on the 26th October 1915, so born August \ September 1893. Have you quoted years of birth the wrong way round?

So while doing Genealogy for me is fun, before I carry on looking there are some things that need nailing down about what you know for definate. Have you seen the birth certificate for  Alfred Ostend Howe?
If so – who is the father named as? Does the fathers’ occupation show him serving or is he still a civilian.

And looking at how you have set out your original request for information can you confirm it is a George that was born 1886 that you are looking for.

Cheers,
Peter

Edited 10 July , 2021 by PRC
Typo

[staffordshire8th]

Peter accept my apologies for the mixing up of information, , so George Howe was baptised 13 sep 1893 in tean staffs so 18998 PTE George Howe seems the correct person i am seeking, in 1911 i have him living with his mother Annie plus his step father and sister in Longton SOT.

Edward Howe married one Alice Crutchley in 1911 in Biddulph staffs and is the father of Albert ostend Howe born 8 feb 1915, Edward was baptised on 28 Nov 1886 in tean staffs.

again accept my apologies for the confusion and any further requests for assistance will be much better thought out and with the correct information.

 

thanks

 

 

 

[MaxD]

And 18998 George Howe address at discharge was 127 Heathcote Road Longton Staffs which seems as if you have the right one there.

1 hour ago, PRC said:

George Howe who was Private 18998 is shown as 22 years and 44 days old when he took his medical at Longton on the 26th October 1915

MaxD

[PRC]

32 minutes ago, PRC said:

Of course there could be another marriage of a Howe to a Crutchley that took place outside England & Wales, or there could be an admin error in the way the GRO reported the marriages or even the birth of Alfred.

 

9 minutes ago, staffordshire8th said:

Edward Howe married one Alice Crutchley in 1911 in Biddulph staffs and is the father of Albert ostend Howe born 8 feb 1915, Edward was baptised on 28 Nov 1886 in tean staffs.

Thanks to the General Registrars Office I was always on a hiding to nothing According to them the person Edward Howe married in the Leek District of Staffordshire in the April to June quarter of 1911 was an Alice "Chrutchley"

(Source Genes Reunited)

So now I can see an Edward Howe, birth registered Q4 1886 and a George Howe, birth registered Q4 1893, both in the Cheadle District with mothers' maiden name Collis.
On the 1891 Census of England & Wales the family - father Alfred, (39), mother Ann, (30) and four children, including the 4 year old Edward, born Checkley, were recorded living at Double Row, Checkley, Staffordshire. Registration District for Births, Marriages and Deaths is Cheadle.
On the 1901 Census of England & Wales the family are recorded living at Cheadle Road, Tean, Checkley. As well as father Alfred, (47) and mother Annie, (41) there are six children including Edward, (14, a Tape Weaver, born Tean, Checkley) and George, (7, born Tean, Checkley).
On the 1911 Census of England & Wales the 24 year old Edward, born Tean, Staffordshire and working as a Carter for the Corporation \Borough Council, was recorded as a lodger at 16 Bourne Street, Fenton, Stoke on Trent.

There are no obvious Army service records that match the details for Edward Howe related above. And I know from previous forum threads that the whereabouts of the Stoke on Trent Absent Voter lists for 1918 & 1919 appear now to be unknown. I've tried a few searches of the online newspapers at FindMyPast but either have nothing at all or too many matches looking for a Howe from Biddulph \ Stoke on Trent \ Tean \ Checkley during the Great War years.

Which takes me back round in a loop to the birth certificate for Alfred Ostend Howe. If his father had already volunteered then the fathers' occupation should show Rank and Regiment\Corps as a minimum, and sometimes much more, (although sometimes unhelpfully just "soldier).  The same would be true of any other children born during the period when he might have been serving.

Do you know anything about the subsequent fate of Edward? I can't see an obvious match on the 1939 Register and looking for Edward Howe's (no middle names) who died in England & Wales before that and post 1914, the stand-out is a 31 year old whose death was recorded in the Stoke on Trent District in the April to June quarter, (Q2), of 1917. No obvious civil probate for that man and no obvious match on the Commonwealth War Graves Commission database. Apologies if that's a red herring

Hope some of that helps,
Peter

[Matlock1418]

1 hour ago, MaxD said:

18998 George Howe address at discharge was 127 Heathcote Road Longton Staffs

@MaxDprobably picked up on this

A Pension Ledger Index Cards at WFA has this address on an unspecified disability claim - Discharged 21.3.19, Born 1894

Other Pension Index Cards show that from the same address his widow, Elsie, made a subsequent claim on his death - likely his death/opening the claim/card completed on 9-12-48

Further annotations indicate that his widow died 24.5.89 and file destroyed 3.9.91

:-) M

[Mark1959]

Interestingly 1913 electoral roll puts an Edward Howe at 117 Heathcote Road, Longton 

[staffordshire8th]

thanks to all for their help support and advice with this enquiry,  Pte George Howe,s MIC is devoid of any information besides the awards of the two medals , it states no theatre of action or any specific detail , besides underneath his name on the left hand side is the initals ( mm), 

is it possible George was kept in the UK in the reserve regiment ? 

 

18998.pdf

[PRC]

He has the Victory Medal and British War Medal because he did not enter a Theatre of War until on or after the 1st January 1916 - in fact the service record already linked to above shows he didn't join up until the 26th October 1915, did his training in the UK with the 10th Battalion, North Staffordshire Regiment, and was then posted out as part of a general draft to France, arriving at 12 Infantry Base Depot at Calais on the 12th August 1916. From there he was posted to the 8th Battalion, North Staffordshire Regiment, joining up with them in the field on the 28th August 1916.

The M.M. stands for Military Medal. His service record simply shows it appeared in the London Gazette dated 13th September 1918. That will just be a list with no details of why it was awarded. His Battalion War Diary may show more details, but it will most likely relate to an incident late spring \ early summer 1918.

Cheers,
Peter

[staffordshire8th]

Thank you Peter this is indeed great news that one of my ancestors  was awarded this medal for his actions in the field of battle

thanks again

 

 

 

[MaxD]

He appears in the 19 Div AQ diary in a list of decorations dated 5 Aug 1918 awarded "for gallantry displayed at Messines, Wulverghem etc 10-18 April 1918"

 

The diary can be downloaded from the National Archives at: Headquarters Branches and Services: Adjutant and Quarter-Master General.  The National Archives  WO 95/2058.  This narrows the window to look at in the battalion war diary 8 Battalion North Staffordshire Regiment | The National Archives.  This describes the fighting in that period very well indeed.

 

MaxD

 

 

 

Edited 13 July , 2021 by MaxD

[staffordshire8th]

Thank you MaxD much appreciated will download the diary and pick up Georges story.

regards