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Pension Record Help


harley1962

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My G.G Grandfather was injured fighting near Kut a letter home tells of his injuries not healing and a very long journey home over the Himalayas. He never really recovered from his wounds and died in 1926 in his 30's.

Does anyone if this widows pension card adds anymore to the story.

Regards

Carole

pension card.jpg

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51 minutes ago, harley1962 said:

Does anyone if this widows pension card adds anymore to the story.

Not much really - beyond what has been completed one can see it was from a printer's batch from 5/25 so must date after that.  And the dates on it would suggest when it was completed.

Presumably you have also seen the other widow's pension card at WFA/Fold3.  

Both cards have the MoP reference 11/W/27579 >>> 11 = SE England / W = Widow's  / 27579 = 27579th claim

The reverse of the other card is from a printer's batch of 4/26 has the address of 21 Potter Lane, Scarborough [not that I would call that SE England but perhaps his widow, Lily, had moved] and there are stamped & written annotations dated Aug 1926 [presumably when the card was created]

Sorry - that's not much more for you.

:-) M

Edit: Also at WFA/Fold3 - I also presume you have seen/point you to the matching Pension Ledger Index Card [shows he died 9.7.26] and an earlier Pension Index Card and its corresponding PLIC [reverse shows pension and 30% disability for employment purposes] for Walter HULME's personal disability [a fistula] under 4/MH/4297 [and a Scarborough address] >>> Region 4 = Yorkshire Region / M= Military H = surname letter / 4297 = 4297th claim

Edited by Matlock1418
revise edit
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31 minutes ago, harley1962 said:

My G.G Grandfather was injured fighting near Kut a letter home tells of his injuries not healing and a very long journey home over the Himalayas.

I can't see any useful additional on the card beyond claim being received (or soldier died) 5th August 1926 and his widows first name, but there are others on the forum who have made much more of a study of the arcane lore that is the abbreviations and administrative references on these pension cards :)  - I note one has just answered while I've been typing !

What intrigued me was the reference of repatriation to the UK over the Himalayas - that makes no logical sense whatsoever and forms no part of any formal evacuation chain that I'm aware of, so would like to know more. Is this documented at all?

Cheers,
Peter

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WEI640 is a reference used by the Pension Issue Office for his identity certificate (not to be contused with the 3 letter codes by the Pension office as reference in 1920).

Craig

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2 hours ago, PRC said:

I can't see any useful additional on the card beyond claim being received (or soldier died) 5th August 1926 and his widows first name, but there are others on the forum who have made much more of a study of the arcane lore that is the abbreviations and administrative references on these pension cards :)  - I note one has just answered while I've been typing !

What intrigued me was the reference of repatriation to the UK over the Himalayas - that makes no logical sense whatsoever and forms no part of any formal evacuation chain that I'm aware of, so would like to know more. Is this documented at all?

Cheers,
Peter

Hi Peter

I have scans of a original letter sent to his wife it would seem he wasn't repatriated straight away via the Himalayas. From what i can make out he was sent to a clearing station then down river to Azagiers then Amara  then Bugra (cannot make out clearly) then Bombay by the time arriving in Bombay he was in a bad way his wound was still open he had septic sores etc, he was operated on but the operation was not a success so they operated again. He was put on garrison duty x India as orderly Sgt for a few months. He then went to Wellington for clerical duties , 2 months later he returned to the reserve cavalry regt at Muttra but had to report sick as his wound was still open, he was admitted to hospital for dressing. he was then transferred to Chakrata in the Himalayas for another operation but the M.O refused to operate again (by this time his chest is bad) he was the told he was unfit for service and awaiting orders to return.

Regards

Peter

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2 hours ago, Matlock1418 said:

Not much really - beyond what has been completed one can see it was from a printer's batch from 5/25 so must date after that.  And the dates on it would suggest when it was completed.

Presumably you have also seen the other widow's pension card at WFA/Fold3.  

Both cards have the MoP reference 11/W/27579 >>> 11 = SE England / W = Widow's  / 27579 = 27579th claim

The reverse of the other card is from a printer's batch of 4/26 has the address of 21 Potter Lane, Scarborough [not that I would call that SE England but perhaps his widow, Lily, had moved] and there are stamped & written annotations dated Aug 1926 [presumably when the card was created]

Sorry - that's not much more for you.

:-) M

Edit: Also at WFA/Fold3 - I also presume you have seen/point you to the matching Pension Ledger Index Card [shows he died 9.7.26] and an earlier Pension Index Card and its corresponding PLIC [reverse shows pension and 30% disability for employment purposes] for Walter HULME's personal disability [a fistula] under 4/MH/4297 [and a Scarborough address] >>> Region 4 = Yorkshire Region / M= Military H = surname letter / 4297 = 4297th claim

Thanks Matlock

I hadn't seen the other pension card. Thanks for the breakdown of the abbreviations.

Scarborough SE England likewise i strongly disagree.  I see the disability as a fistula ( he was shot up the backside and after numerous operations the wound did not heal )

Regards

Carole

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Thanks Peter:)

Transfer to one of the cooler hill station for convalescence and follow up non-emergency operations was fairly common - @charlie962 may be able to add a little bit more on that.

Sounds like the letter pre-dated his actual medical evacuation back to the UK, and it was almost certainly done by hospital ship, either from Calcutta or Bombay. The route back was normally via the Suez Canal and the Mediterranean, although if the central powers were having one of the all out submarine warfare phases and sinking hospital ships, then he may have been routed via South Africa.

I see the death of the 34 year old Walter Hulme was recorded in the Scarborough District in the July to September quarter of 1926, but no obvious entry in the civil probate entry. The lack of he latter would tend to imply the couple were either renting, lodging or living with family. Following Walters' death Lily may well have struggled to rent if that was the case and may have moved to the south-east for family support. I take it that their marriage was that of a Walter G. Hulme to a Lily Clarke recorded in the Scarborough District in the Joly to September quarter of 1914  - possible children recorded in the Scarborough District Eunice L Hulme, (Q2 1915), Arthur G B Hulme (Q3 1916) and Walter (Q2 1922), all with mothers maiden name Clarke. There is a probable match for the widowed Lily Hulme, as there is a woman of that name, born 19th May 1892, who turns up on the 1939 Register as the first person in the household at 94 Barrowcliff Road, Scarborough. So if she did move to the south-east it would appear not to have lasted.

Hope that is of interest.
(Another) Peter

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31 minutes ago, harley1962 said:

Thanks Matlock

I hadn't seen the other pension card. Thanks for the breakdown of the abbreviations.

Scarborough SE England likewise i strongly disagree.  I see the disability as a fistula ( he was shot up the backside and after numerous operations the wound did not heal )

Regards

Carole

The region was originally given based on area of residence however this only holds for a period of time and then this designation went by the wayside. So an address and the nominal region can soon become mismatched.

Craig

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Just had a look at the actual cards and ledgers.

The widows card that shows the Scarborough address is on April 1926 cardstock so it must been written up then or later. By that point in time the regional codes were no longer particularly relevant so that confirms what I thought earlier. By 1926 in any case the claims for all pensions were back within a centre that was in the old SE region (Acton, London).

The original regional claim was a 4/MH reference so for Yorkshire. At that time the regional claims numbers applied as the work, for disabled men, was disbursed on to a regional level (which never happened with widows claims).

His original pension reference is shown on the top of the ledger - MVD 2716. This is from a range used in 1920 for men who were discharged but not discharged under the Class Z scheme.

Craig

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7 hours ago, PRC said:

Thanks Peter:)

Transfer to one of the cooler hill station for convalescence and follow up non-emergency operations was fairly common - @charlie962 may be able to add a little bit more on that.

Sounds like the letter pre-dated his actual medical evacuation back to the UK, and it was almost certainly done by hospital ship, either from Calcutta or Bombay. The route back was normally via the Suez Canal and the Mediterranean, although if the central powers were having one of the all out submarine warfare phases and sinking hospital ships, then he may have been routed via South Africa.

I see the death of the 34 year old Walter Hulme was recorded in the Scarborough District in the July to September quarter of 1926, but no obvious entry in the civil probate entry. The lack of he latter would tend to imply the couple were either renting, lodging or living with family. Following Walters' death Lily may well have struggled to rent if that was the case and may have moved to the south-east for family support. I take it that their marriage was that of a Walter G. Hulme to a Lily Clarke recorded in the Scarborough District in the Joly to September quarter of 1914  - possible children recorded in the Scarborough District Eunice L Hulme, (Q2 1915), Arthur G B Hulme (Q3 1916) and Walter (Q2 1922), all with mothers maiden name Clarke. There is a probable match for the widowed Lily Hulme, as there is a woman of that name, born 19th May 1892, who turns up on the 1939 Register as the first person in the household at 94 Barrowcliff Road, Scarborough. So if she did move to the south-east it would appear not to have lasted.

Hope that is of interest.
(Another) Peter

Hi Peter 

Yes the letter ends with him saying he's still waiting and is dated August (I believe 1917)as it begins my life up to now starting Sept 1916 and details in 8 pages his journey. 

His widow Lily was born in Scarborough and never moved from Scarborough she met Walter when he was stationed at Burniston Barracks Scarborough.

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20 minutes ago, harley1962 said:

His widow Lily was born in Scarborough and never moved from Scarborough she met Walter when he was stationed at Burniston Barracks Scarborough.

I see Craig has now explained it was the paperwork for her widows claim that moved to London as that side of things was centralised - something I for one was certainly not aware of. As such it is the card is therefore silent on her specific regional whereabouts and so doesn't call into question any evidence tha you have that she lived out her life in Scarborough.

The Medical facilities in India would have been run by the Indian Medical Service. I wonder if someone like forum member @MaureenE can advise if the Indian Army papers at the British Library includes such things as Admissions and Discharges Books for Medical Facilities. If the one for Chakrata still exists then you might be able to confirm when and how long he was there.

Cheers
Peter

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36 minutes ago, PRC said:

I see Craig has now explained it was the paperwork for her widows claim that moved to London as that side of things was centralised - something I for one was certainly not aware of. As such it is the card is therefore silent on her specific regional whereabouts and so doesn't call into question any evidence tha you have that she lived out her life in Scarborough.

The Medical facilities in India would have been run by the Indian Medical Service. I wonder if someone like forum member @MaureenE can advise if the Indian Army papers at the British Library includes such things as Admissions and Discharges Books for Medical Facilities. If the one for Chakrata still exists then you might be able to confirm when and how long he was there.

Cheers
Peter

Just to clarify - widows pension processing always remained in London,  they were never sent out to regional centres. They used various buildings in central London.

By 1926 all of the outsourced work for disabled men had been brought back in to London,  and all pension work had been centralised in to the new offices at Acton.

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2 hours ago, PRC said:

 

The Medical facilities in India would have been run by the Indian Medical Service. I wonder if someone like forum member @MaureenE can advise if the Indian Army papers at the British Library includes such things as Admissions and Discharges Books for Medical Facilities. If the one for Chakrata still exists then you might be able to confirm when and how long he was there.

Cheers
Peter

I have never seen any reference to such records at the British Library. I would be surprised if they exist even in India.

Maureen

 

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I presume that this is Walter's pension card as opposed to his widow's?

image.png.4ef91e26b702f84ec1a1d25c50c26b29.png

Courtesy Fold3

George

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4 hours ago, George Rayner said:

I presume that this is Walter's pension card as opposed to his widow's?

image.png.4ef91e26b702f84ec1a1d25c50c26b29.png

Courtesy Fold3

George

Yes, it's Walter's pension ledger.

Craig

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On 09/07/2021 at 14:08, harley1962 said:

Azagiers

Could this be Aziziya, halfway between Kut and Baghdad ? You do not give a date for the letter nor for his wounding, If it was late 1915 then Aziziya was the scene of fighting, in which 14H participated, when Townshend's force retreated to hole up in Kut after the Battle of Ctesiphon.

 

On 09/07/2021 at 14:08, harley1962 said:

then Bugra (cannot make out clearly

probably Basra (or Busra as it was often written). The main embarkation point for wounded shipped back to Bombay.

 

Charlie

 

Edit-  I see his MIC only mentions BWM and VM thus not in Mespot until 1916 at earliest. Perhaps injured during advance on Baghdad 1916/17 ?

Edited by charlie962
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