Photograph of Officers in Dalhousie, India

[corisande]

10 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Unfortunately I’m struggling to find an image of the medallion worn by the two soldiers with the cross on their sashes, but I’m confident it is that depicted on the frontispiece to the manual shown above.

 

I cannot get that medal either, but I agree that it is almost certainly the one.

 

The association in question has this write up here

 

Catholic Total Abstinence League of the Cross

Cardinal Henry Manning founded the Catholic Total Abstinence League of the Cross in 1873 by. Both clergy and laity were engaged in ‘holy warfare against intemperance.’ Most people called the organization the League of the Cross.

Membership in the League

• Only Catholics could become members of the League.
• Members had to live as good practical Catholics after joining. Going to confession and communion at least once a month was expected.
• Those who failed to be good practical Catholics could not hold any office in the organization.

The Pledge

Cardinal Henry Manning

“I promise to you, reverend father, and to the League of the Holy Cross, by the help of God’s grace, to abstain from all intoxicating drinks.’ Usually added was “And I also promise to be faithful in the practice of my holy religion.”¹

Time did not limit the pledge. The Constitution and Rules of the League stated that the pledge itself was not binding under sin. But breaking it would be a sin for those who knew that doing so ‘would thereby expose themselves to the danger of intemperance.’²

Indulgences Granted

• Members gained a plenary indulgence the day they joined.
• Members gained a plenary indulgence on the Feasts of St. Patrick, St. John the Baptist and Our Lady of Mercy.
• Members who persuaded another to join the League gained an indulgence of 300 days.
• Members who took communion monthly gained an indulgence of 300 days.

Children

Many branches of the League created a League of the Cross Guild for children. They could join the Guild with parental approval. The Guild had meetings with special devotions.

Demise

The League of the Cross still existed in 1913.³  However, by the mid-1920s it no longer existed

[FROGSMILE]

13 minutes ago, corisande said:

 

I cannot get that medal either, but I agree that it is almost certainly the one.

 

The association in question has this write up here

 

Catholic Total Abstinence League of the Cross

Cardinal Henry Manning founded the Catholic Total Abstinence League of the Cross in 1873 by. Both clergy and laity were engaged in ‘holy warfare against intemperance.’ Most people called the organization the League of the Cross.

Membership in the League

• Only Catholics could become members of the League.
• Members had to live as good practical Catholics after joining. Going to confession and communion at least once a month was expected.
• Those who failed to be good practical Catholics could not hold any office in the organization.

The Pledge

Cardinal Henry Manning

“I promise to you, reverend father, and to the League of the Holy Cross, by the help of God’s grace, to abstain from all intoxicating drinks.’ Usually added was “And I also promise to be faithful in the practice of my holy religion.”¹

Time did not limit the pledge. The Constitution and Rules of the League stated that the pledge itself was not binding under sin. But breaking it would be a sin for those who knew that doing so ‘would thereby expose themselves to the danger of intemperance.’²

Indulgences Granted

• Members gained a plenary indulgence the day they joined.
• Members gained a plenary indulgence on the Feasts of St. Patrick, St. John the Baptist and Our Lady of Mercy.
• Members who persuaded another to join the League gained an indulgence of 300 days.
• Members who took communion monthly gained an indulgence of 300 days.

Children

Many branches of the League created a League of the Cross Guild for children. They could join the Guild with parental approval. The Guild had meetings with special devotions.

Demise

The League of the Cross still existed in 1913.³  However, by the mid-1920s it no longer existed

Brilliant!  I reckon that has covered the circumstances of subject photo very well.  It’s most frustrating that so many other Temperance medals and awards can be seen in various auction house archives and even the website of the National Army Museum, but nary one of the Roman Catholic examples.

[corisande]

I have not got my photoshop software on this computer, so cannot magnify this photo . It is here on page 24/25 . It does magnify, but I cannot hold the larger copy on file

 

[corisande]

With a bit of perseverance I can get

 

[FROGSMILE]

Absolutely fantastic corisande!  That’s a great corroboration methinks.  It’s really gratifying that between all contributors we’ve been able to bring meaningful historical life back to an antique photo that sits in a tattered frame and gradually deteriorates back in India where it was taken.  The fact that so much detail still survived in the image is also a wonderful testament to the superbly enduring technology that created glass plate photography.

 

NB.  It’s intriguing that there’re no sashes in the Connaught’s photo, nor the star shaped medal.  The outline shape of the medals is much more reminiscent of those awarded by the ATA.  The right hand medal in each pair is the 6-months abstinence cross.

The soldiers wear India Pattern frocks as before, and once again, there’s not a single substantive NCO in the frame.

Edited 21 June , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[corisande]

I too am a great believer in corroboration and it can and does often work well on the forum

 

As you know with this subject, we are in an area that I have little knowledge :-)

 

What I have looked for, and been unable to find, is the "rules" for the award of medals in such organizations. I think I have read in the past , that they got a medal for so many years without drink, and the next one for so many more years. But I cannot find anything to substantiate that

[corisande]

15 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

NB.  It’s intriguing that there’re no sashes in the Connaught’s photo nor the star shaped medal.  The outline shape of the medals is much more reminiscent of those awarded by the ATA.

 

Yes, my feeling is that the Connaughts are the "true" League of the Cross Members. And a bit like the splintering of the Free Presbyterian Church, what we see here is a  similar Temperance Group with the Munsters.  But the Munster's one may have been started by the two priests, and been unique to that garrison. Hence we cannot get medal photos  online

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, corisande said:

I too am a great believer in corroboration and it can and does often work well on the forum

 

As you know with this subject, we are in an area that I have little knowledge :-)

 

What I have looked for, and been unable to find, is the "rules" for the award of medals in such organizations. I think I have read in the past , that they got a medal for so many years without drink, and the next one for so many more years. But I cannot find anything to substantiate that

The qualifying criteria for awards relating to the Army Temperance Association can be found online I think, and I would be astonished if they were not the same for the 'League of the Cross' (RCTS) and I say that because it would have required the Army’s sanction for the awards to be worn and they would have insisted upon commonality rather than risk a them and us scenario.

 

1 hour ago, corisande said:

 

Yes, my feeling is that the Connaughts are the "true" League of the Cross Members. And a bit like the splintering of the Free Presbyterian Church, what we see here is a  similar Temperance Group with the Munsters.  But the Munster's one may have been started by the two priests, and been unique to that garrison. Hence we cannot get medal photos  online

The photo of the RMF is from four years before the Connaught’s and I agree that the Capuchins might have organised something special to their own garrison’s diocese.  The star shaped medal was presumably sent from home.  This is implied in the link that I posted, where there was mention of early medals donated by wealthy benefactors.  
 

Conversely, my gut feeling based on the images of the Connaught’s is that whilst taking the League of the Cross pledge, they appear to be wearing universal ATA pattern medals.  It would not surprise me if the Army had taken action to insist upon common medals in the interim between the two photographs.  They were keen to avoid any kind of division.

Edited 21 June , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[corisande]

Yes, we probably have got as far as we can with this

 

I read this in the Leinster Association web site

 

The Soldiers’ Total Temperance Association was formed in 1862 and by 1896 having being renamed The Army Temperance Association and part funded by the government had 22,800 members in India alone. Although the problem of excessive drinking was not solved it was at least reduced through a combination of the temperance movement, improvements in service conditions and increased leisure opportunities, alas, too late to save Private Patrick O’Hara. Drink was not just an “Other Ranks” problem. Officers often drank huge quantities though better quality and more variety than the men. The Duke of Wellington reckoned to be an abstemious man regularly drank “four or five glasses with people at dinner and about a pint of claret after”

 

Amen to that

 

[MaureenE]

15 minutes ago, corisande said:

 

 

What I have looked for, and been unable to find, is the "rules" for the award of medals in such organizations. I think I have read in the past , that they got a medal for so many years without drink, and the next one for so many more years. But I cannot find anything to substantiate that

in the link  Numismatic Exhibits: Indian Temperance Medals prafulthakkar.in,  page 5 sets out some of the medals awarded, ranging from 6 months to 20 years. One of the source books quoted is A Guide to Military Temperance Medals by David A. Harris. 2nd Edition (with additional information) 2006. Note, now an archived website.

 

Silver medal of the Army Temperance Association, India The medal is in the shape of a Maltese Cross, with an elephant in the centre. It was awarded for accomplishing 8 years temperance . National Museums Scotland

 

Maureen

[FROGSMILE]

6 hours ago, corisande said:

Yes, we probably have got as far as we can with this

 

I read this in the Leinster Association web site

 

The Soldiers’ Total Temperance Association was formed in 1862 and by 1896 having being renamed The Army Temperance Association and part funded by the government had 22,800 members in India alone. Although the problem of excessive drinking was not solved it was at least reduced through a combination of the temperance movement, improvements in service conditions and increased leisure opportunities, alas, too late to save Private Patrick O’Hara. Drink was not just an “Other Ranks” problem. Officers often drank huge quantities though better quality and more variety than the men. The Duke of Wellington reckoned to be an abstemious man regularly drank “four or five glasses with people at dinner and about a pint of claret after”

 

Amen to that

 

 

Yes it certainly wasn’t embraced wholeheartedly by all the soldiery and, given the social entertainment element of the Mess system (i.e. discrete officers’ and sergeants’), it might explain why there were no substantive NCOs in the photos.  One gets an impression of mixed attitudes to abstinence in Frank Richards’s biography, Old Soldier Sahib.  There is quite a good (but short) explanation of the evolution of the ATA here: https://www.nam.ac.uk/explore/temperance-medals

Edited 21 June , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[corisande]

Thanks MaureenE. I am learning all the time with this one

[FROGSMILE]

52 minutes ago, MaureenE said:

in the link  Numismatic Exhibits: Indian Temperance Medals prafulthakkar.in,  page 5 sets out some of the medals awarded, ranging from 6 months to 20 years. One of the source books quoted is A Guide to Military Temperance Medals by David A. Harris. 2nd Edition (with additional information) 2006. Note, now an archived website.

 

Silver medal of the Army Temperance Association, India The medal is in the shape of a Maltese Cross, with an elephant in the centre. It was awarded for accomplishing 8 years temperance . National Museums Scotland

 

Maureen

Thank you Maureene.  As we both know the Temperance medals have become a subject of specialised collectors for some years now.  The early ones can often be of very high quality indeed.  I enclose an example of a regimental medal from the earlier (Total Abstinence Society) period before all were swept up by an Army-wide association.

 

Edited 21 June , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[A Sanyal]

13 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

If you could focus in on the man at bottom centre of this photo and take care to show both of his shoulders it should show his shoulder title clearly.  

See enclosed image from the series that Bruce and I are currently presenting in uniformology.com: “Scarlet into Khaki”.  By 1904 the letter R had been added to the scarlet strap at left.
 

 

Thanks, and regret the delay.

Regards. 

[FROGSMILE]

3 hours ago, A Sanyal said:

 

Thanks, and regret the delay.

Regards. 

 

Well that's blown things wide open, as the soldier at the front (and therefore presumably the rest of the soldiers) is from the Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers.  This was an overwhelmingly Protestant regiment, although as with all Irish regiments it did have a proportion of Roman Catholics.  The collar badges had a similarly pointed design to RMF, but with the castle of Enniskillen on the ball of the grenade (the two cap badges were also similar).  From a distance they appeared very alike.  The regiment had a very specific association with Enniskillen (Inniskilling) that had to be reflected in their ancient title and so their shoulder title was unusually long for fusiliers with a special abbreviation.  This development places the photo closer to the date that I originally assessed based on the men's haircuts and general appearance.  The fact that they are Catholics in an overwhelmingly Protestant regiment also goes some way towards explaining why perhaps there are no substantive NCOs in the photo.  From my perspective it has made the photo all the more interesting and illuminating.  It's perhaps a bit like having a regiment associated with Shia Islam with a much smaller proportion of men who followed the teachings of Sunni Islam and would have required careful handling by the commanding officer and the senior NCOs.

 

 

 

Edited 21 June , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[corisande]

From OPs earlier post in this thread

 

Fusiliers in Dalhousie were as under:-

1899-1903        2nd Battalion Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers

1904                  1st Battalion Royal Munster Fusiliers

1907-08, 11       2nd Battalion Princess Victoria’s (Royal Irish Fusiliers)

(1911  -13          1st Battalion of The Lancashire Fusiliers)

(1916                 1st Garrison Battalion Royal Scots Fusiliers)

(1921                 4th Battalion The Royal Fusiliers (City of London Regiment))

1922-24            1st Battalion The Royal Fusiliers

1922-25            1st Battalion Royal Welch Fusiliers

1925                 1st Battalion The Royal Scots Fusiliers

[FROGSMILE]

21 hours ago, corisande said:

From OPs earlier post in this thread

 

Fusiliers in Dalhousie were as under:-

1899-1903        2nd Battalion Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers

1904                  1st Battalion Royal Munster Fusiliers

1907-08, 11       2nd Battalion Princess Victoria’s (Royal Irish Fusiliers)

(1911  -13          1st Battalion of The Lancashire Fusiliers)

(1916                 1st Garrison Battalion Royal Scots Fusiliers)

(1921                 4th Battalion The Royal Fusiliers (City of London Regiment))

1922-24            1st Battalion The Royal Fusiliers

1922-25            1st Battalion Royal Welch Fusiliers

1925                 1st Battalion The Royal Scots Fusiliers

 

Yes, that fits entirely with the period that I originally thought the photo to be.  It just goes to show how wrong I was to allow the crosses and obviously Catholic connections linked to the photo to rule out the Inniskillings in my mind.  It also throws new perspective on the medal ribbons identified so clearly by Bryan and Andrew.

 

NB.  How I wish I could have had a conversation with those men to see how well they were treated.  It also begs the question as to whether those Capuchin monks were in any way up to any mischief as regards the loyalty of the soldiers.  There's no evidence that I'm aware of concerning disaffection, but it's an intriguing thought all the same.

 

Footnote:  The 2nd Battalion Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers, were in India from 1888 until 1899, when they departed for South Africa, before returning again for [edit] between 1901 and 1903.  As mentioned the men are wearing India pattern frocks.  The photo seems likely to be around 1899, just one year after the Tirah campaign and when the battalion was at Dalhousie.  They seem to be wearing the India General Service medal with the TIRAH clasp.  I enclose a photo of another soldier of the regiment in 1898, again at Dalhousie.  It gives a better view of the uniform and also the appearance of soldiers when 'walking-out' of the cantonment.

 

Afternote:  if the photo was taken during construction of the church the date of the photo must be after the battalion returned from South Africa, but before it received its medals for that campaign.

 

Edited 22 June , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[A Sanyal]

5 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

 

Yes, that fits entirely with the period that I originally thought the photo to be.  It just goes to show how wrong I was to allow the crosses and obviously Catholic connections linked to the photo to rule out the Inniskillings in my mind.  It also throws new perspective on the medal ribbons identified so clearly by Bryan and Andrew.

Correction of my previous post: 2nd Bn Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers was in Dalhousie till 1902, not 1903. Construction of the Church was completed in 1904.

 

Would this be a factor?   

 

Thanks,

AS.

[Mark1959]

Just a note. I agree the clasps look too chunky for the QSA. So possibly IGSMs

 

[RNCVR]

Footnote:  The 2nd Battalion Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers, were in India from 1888 until 1899, when they departed for South Africa, before returning again between 1899 and 1903.  The photo seems likely to be around 1899, just one year after the Tirah campaign the battalion was at Dalhousie.  They seem to be wearing the India General Service medal with TIRAH clasp.

 

I had a look in British Battles & Medals (bible for medal collectors), & the clasps a soldier could qualify for in this timeframe were -

 

Punjab Frontier 1897-98

Malakand 1897

Samana 1897

Tirah 1897-98

 

Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers(no Batt'n given) were at Tirah in the Peshawar column, which saw some heavy fighting.

 

Seven of the OR's are wearing the IGS medal with 2 clasps, so perhaps they saw action\service in a prior India campaign. 

 

Been a very interesting topic!

 

Best to all!

Bryan 

Edited 21 June , 2021 by RNCVR
.

[RNCVR]

  I enclose a photo of another soldier of the regiment in 1898, again at Dalhousie.  It gives a better view of the uniform and also the appearance of soldiers when 'walking-out' of the cantonment.

 

Thats a really super photo Froggie! Deffo an IGS medal he is wearing.

Thanks for posting!

Edited 21 June , 2021 by RNCVR

[A Sanyal]

14 minutes ago, RNCVR said:

Footnote:  The 2nd Battalion Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers, were in India from 1888 until 1899, when they departed for South Africa, before returning again between 1899 and 1903.  The photo seems likely to be around 1899, just one year after the Tirah campaign the battalion was at Dalhousie.  They seem to be wearing the India General Service medal with TIRAH clasp.

 

I had a look in British Battles & Medals (bible for medal collectors), & the clasps a soldier could qualify for in this timeframe were -

 

Punjab Frontier 1897-98

Malakand 1897

Samana 1897

Tirah 1897-98

 

Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers(no Batt'n given) were at Tirah in the Peshawar column, which saw some heavy fighting.

 

A small number of the OR's are wearing the IGS medal with 2 clasps, so perhaps they saw action\service in a prior India campaign 

 

Been a very interesting topic!

 

Best to all!

Bryan 

 

Bn in the Tirah campaign was the 2nd, which was in Dalhousie as of 31 Dec 1901. ( https://deriv.nls.uk/dcn23/1006/1276/100612765.23.pdf (page 272 of the book, pages 336, 337 of the pdf) )

 

 

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, A Sanyal said:

Correction of my previous post: 2nd Bn Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers was in Dalhousie till 1902, not 1903. Construction of the Church was completed in 1904.

 

Would this be a factor?   

 

Thanks,

AS.

All I can say with certainty is that the photo shows men of the 2nd Battalion Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers, as you revealed with your close up photo of the central soldier whose shoulder title was exposed because of his manner of sitting.  Ergo it must be in that narrow window of, after the Tirah campaign and before receiving medals for South Africa.  Perhaps it was taken in front of a part of the church that was completed early on.  It usually took two or three years to construct a large church (assuming masonry).

Edited 21 June , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

32 minutes ago, RNCVR said:

Footnote:  The 2nd Battalion Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers, were in India from 1888 until 1899, when they departed for South Africa, before returning again between 1899 and 1903.  The photo seems likely to be around 1899, just one year after the Tirah campaign the battalion was at Dalhousie.  They seem to be wearing the India General Service medal with TIRAH 

 

Seven of the OR's are wearing the IGS medal with 2 clasps, so perhaps they saw action\service in a prior India campaign. 

 

Been a very interesting topic!

 

Best to all!

Bryan 

As well as Tirah the 2nd Battalion men might have the additional (second) clasp Punjab Frontier 1897-98: https://www.northeastmedals.co.uk/british_regiment/irish/royal_inniskilling_fusiliers.htm

Edited 21 June , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[A Sanyal]

18 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

All I can say with certainty is that the photo shows men of the 2nd Battalion Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers, as you revealed with your close up photo of the central soldier whose shoulder title was exposed because of his manner of sitting.  Ergo it must be in that narrow window of, after the Tirah campaign and before receiving medals for South Africa.  Perhaps it was taken in front of a part of the church that was completed early on.  It usually took two or three years to construct a large church.

Thank you! I will pass on this information to the Pastor of Saint Francis Church Dalhousie, and I am sure that he will be delighted to know this. Apparently, it is mentioned that the "cost of construction was largely defrayed to the officers and men of the Army Unit in Dalhousie."

 

A similar attribution is there about another Church, the Saint Patrick's Church, which was constructed in 1909, and is in the Cantonment. The 2nd Royal Irish Fusiliers were here in 1907 and 1908!

 

Pic is from the Notebook of the Cantonment Magistrate Dalhousie....