Photograph of Officers in Dalhousie, India

[A Sanyal]

I am posting a group photograph of officers in front of Saint Francis Church, Dalhousie India, hoping to identify the Unit, the officers and the Chaplains. 

 

In May 1890, Brother Godfrey Pelckmans, a Belgian Capuchin, bought a spacious building named "Clydesdale" and a plot of four acres of land on Potreyn hill at Dalhousie which was owned by a Captain in the army, who had bought it in auction on 28 July 1861. On 08 December 1890, Br Pelckmans re-named it "Alverna" and began to stay there. In the beginning, it was used as a study house for the missionaries of the Lahore Mission to study theology and local languages. In 1891, he laid the foundation stone for the St Francis Church.

 

Br Godfrey Pelckmans passed away and was buried in the Dalhousie Civil Cemetery on 05 Aug 1904. Construction of the Church was completed on 15 August 1894. The Units which were in Dalhousie in 1894 were 2^nd Battalion The Royal Warwickshire Regiment (Det) and 2^nd Battalion The Duke of Edinburgh’s (Wiltshire Regiment).

 

Could this have been a picture taken at the inauguration/ consecration of the Church?  A picture of the rear of the frame is also placed for clues. 

 

Grateful for any help. 

[Robin Garrett]

I can only see the back of the frame and not the photo of the officers. 

[A Sanyal]

I have attached two pictures. However, posting the picture once more.

[Robin Garrett]

I don't think they are officers but other ranks. There is certainly a lance corporal seated next to the right hand bearded priest and another standing left. I can't make out the collar dogs (badges) of the soldiers and it would help if you were able to post a close up of one of the men. I wonder whether the sashes are something to do with a religious organisation. In my experience other ranks below the rank of sergeant do not wear sashes.

[A Sanyal]

Thanks for your time!

[Robin Garrett]

I don't recognise the badges (they might be fusiliers) but the definition is good and I am sure someone will come along soon who will be able to let you know. I am now convinced that the sashes are to do with a religious organisation - the imposing man in the centre of your blow up has a cross below the badge on the sash, perhaps marking him out as an officer of the order.

[PRC]

Perhaps @FROGSMILE can bring his encyclopedic knowledge to bear on the uniforms and collar badges so at least the unit and most likely period can be pinned down. There are also some medals there that might help to date it.

 

Both masonic lodges and tee-total religious groups like the Methodists were active amongst the other ranks, (and such men tended to end up as junior NCO's). Both organisations were prone to sash wearing with religious symbolry like the cross.

 

Cheers,

Peter

[FROGSMILE]

They are an Irish fusilier regiment, I believe, and from their dark blue collars with Royal appellation.  The wearing of sashes with a cross indicates a unit with largely Roman Catholic traditions I think, and the pattern of the collar badges also rules out the Royal Irish Fusiliers in any case. That leaves just the Royal Dublin Fusiliers and the Royal Munster Fusiliers and the distinctive pointed end to the flames protruding from the grenade indicates that it is almost certainly the latter.  The soldiers are all wearing the India Pattern (aka Foreign Service) Frock and I’d date the photo to around 1890+/-.

 

 

Edited 20 June , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[A Sanyal]

Thank you, sir.

Fusiliers in Dalhousie were as under:-

1899-1903        2^nd Battalion Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers

1904                  1^st Battalion Royal Munster Fusiliers

1907-08, 11       2^nd Battalion Princess Victoria’s (Royal Irish Fusiliers)

(1911  -13          1^st Battalion of The Lancashire Fusiliers)

(1916                 1^st Garrison Battalion Royal Scots Fusiliers)

(1921                 4th Battalion The Royal Fusiliers (City of London Regiment))

1922-24            1^st Battalion The Royal Fusiliers

1922-25            1^st Battalion Royal Welch Fusiliers

1925                 1^st Battalion The Royal Scots Fusiliers

Does this help?

 

 

 

 

[FROGSMILE]

28 minutes ago, A Sanyal said:

Thank you, sir.

Fusiliers in Dalhousie were as under:-

1899-1903        2^nd Battalion Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers

1904                  1^st Battalion Royal Munster Fusiliers

1907-08, 11       2^nd Battalion Princess Victoria’s (Royal Irish Fusiliers)

(1911  -13          1^st Battalion of The Lancashire Fusiliers)

(1916                 1^st Garrison Battalion Royal Scots Fusiliers)

(1921                 4th Battalion The Royal Fusiliers (City of London Regiment))

1922-24            1^st Battalion The Royal Fusiliers

1922-25            1^st Battalion Royal Welch Fusiliers

1925                 1^st Battalion The Royal Scots Fusiliers

Does this help?

 

 

 

 

Yes, it helps confirm the identity.  It is almost certainly the 1st Battalion Royal Munster Fusiliers, and I was out by 14 years with my dating.  The collar badge design rules the other regiments out when combined with the other dress features that I’ve mentioned (including the sashes and medallions).

 

The priests in the photo have the look of Jesuit Missionaries, or Capuchin Monks, and I’m wondering if there was some kind of fraternal order, or Temperance organisation that they encouraged.  The sashes are not those most commonly seen with English, Welsh, Scots or Protestant Irish units.

 

Notice that the central character (plus another further left) with cross on his sash also has a medallion with a cross at its centre.  If that can be identified it will be possible to confirm the particular order of Catholic brotherhood that the sashes represent.

Edited 20 June , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[A Sanyal]

Doff my hat to you, sir.

Construction of the Church behind the group was completed in Aug 1904, the year the 1st Bn RMF were in Dalhousie.

In the centre of the picture were probably Bishop Godfrey Pelckmans and Father Alexander Bollansée Arsene of the Capuchins' Lahore Diocese. What is striking is that both passed away in Aug 1904. So the window is rather small.    

[FROGSMILE]

29 minutes ago, A Sanyal said:

Doff my hat to you, sir.

Construction of the Church behind the group was completed in Aug 1904, the year the 1st Bn RMF were in Dalhousie.

In the centre of the picture were probably Bishop Godfrey Pelckmans and Father Alexander Bollansée Arsene of the Capuchins' Lahore Diocese. What is striking is that both passed away in Aug 1904. So the window is rather small.    

It’s an extremely interesting photo and I’m trying to track down the sash and especially the medals, that I think are probably connected with the Capuchin Order.  There was a close relationship between the Capuchins and Ireland and they also seemed to offer support to the Irish Republican cause in Ireland itself.  See: https://www.capuchinfranciscans.ie/about/archives-and-heritage/descriptive-catalogues-of-archival-material/

I imagine that the officers of the Royal Munster Fusiliers (a fine and loyal regiment regardless of religious sentiment) might have been aware of such connections in Ireland so I’m rather intrigued as to how the relationship suggested by the photo was perceived.

Edited 20 June , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

23 hours ago, A Sanyal said:

Thanks for your time!

If you could focus in on the man at bottom centre of this photo and take care to show both of his shoulders it should show his shoulder title clearly.  

See enclosed image from the series that Bruce and I are currently publishing in uniformology.com: “Scarlet into Khaki”.  By 1904 the letter R had been added to the scarlet strap at left.
 

Edited 21 June , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Mark1959]

I believe several men have the QSA Medal. This suggests 1RMF too as in South Africa prior to moving to India

Edited 20 June , 2021 by Mark1959

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Mark1959 said:

I believe several men have the QSA Medal. This suggests 1RMF too as in South Africa prior to moving to India

Thanks Mark, I wish that I could identify the sashes and medals.  I’ve spent a couple of hours searching for provenance, but to no avail.  They aren’t Temperance, so a pure religious identity seems likely.  That said Rome took a dim view (didn’t encourage) societies and lodges, etc. of any kind, so it’s a bit of a conundrum to put it mildly.  The style of sash bears no resemblance to those used by other regiment’s Buffaloes, Masons and Oddfellows.

 

NB.  One of the things that struck me as unusual given the number of soldiers in the frame is that there’s not a single substantive NCO present.

Edited 21 June , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[RNCVR]

50 minutes ago, Mark1959 said:

I believe several men have the QSA Medal. This suggests 1RMF too as in South Africa prior to moving to India

 

I dont think it is the QSA medal the soldiers are wearing( on their left chests) but rather the 1896- India General Service medal.

[FROGSMILE]

59 minutes ago, RNCVR said:

 

I dont think it is the QSA medal the soldiers are wearing( on their left chests) but rather the 1896- India General Service medal.

I think that Mark must be right in this case Bryan as 1st RMF do not seem to have qualified for that particular medal and there’s no doubt about the identity of the men’s regiment.  See: https://www.northeastmedals.co.uk/british_regiment/irish/royal_munster_fusiliers.htm

[Andrew Upton]

18 hours ago, Mark1959 said:

I believe several men have the QSA Medal. This suggests 1RMF too as in South Africa prior to moving to India

 

17 hours ago, RNCVR said:

 

I dont think it is the QSA medal the soldiers are wearing( on their left chests) but rather the 1896- India General Service medal.

 

The medal most of the men appear to be wearing is most definitely NOT the QSA. The QSA has a straight suspender with narrow bars without roses on an unevenly striped ribbon. All these here have curly suspenders with thick bars with roses and evenly striped ribbons. Though Mark Bryan has already suggested the 1896 type (a much better contender than the QSA) if this does not seem to fit the history of the suggested regiment then the earlier India General Service Medal 1854/95 it replaced would also be an excellent candidate:

 

QSA:

 

 

India GSM 1854/95:

 

 

India Medal 1895/02

 

 

 

Edited 21 June , 2021 by Andrew Upton
Wrote wrong name!

[MaureenE]

In the link provided by FROGSMILE above  https://www.capuchinfranciscans.ie/about/archives-and-heritage/descriptive-catalogues-of-archival-material/

item 5 is about Fr. Theobald Mathew and his total abstinence campaign .  Although FROGSMILE said above the sashes weren't Temperance,  I wonder if the sashes worn by the men relate to  a Capuchin related Temperance Society. Perhaps A Sanyal could contact the Irish Capuchin Archives.

 

The FIBIS Fibiwiki page Temperance organisations https://wiki.fibis.org/w/Temperance_organisations has some information about the major Temperance Societies, which seem likely to be  Protestant aligned organisation.

 

Maureen

[FROGSMILE]

5 hours ago, Andrew Upton said:

 

 

The medal most of the men appear to be wearing is most definitely NOT the QSA. The QSA has a straight suspender with narrow bars without roses on an unevenly striped ribbon. All these here have curly suspenders with thick bars with roses and evenly striped ribbons. Though Mark has already suggested the 1896 type (a much better contender than the QSA) if this does not seem to fit the history of the suggested regiment then the earlier India General Service Medal 1854/95 it replaced would also be an excellent candidate:

 

QSA:

 

 

India GSM 1854/95:

 

 

India Medal 1895/02

 

 

 

Thank you Andrew, that’s very helpful and the latter medal did apparently have some recipients in 1st Bn RMF.

[FROGSMILE]

7 hours ago, MaureenE said:

In the link provided by FROGSMILE above  https://www.capuchinfranciscans.ie/about/archives-and-heritage/descriptive-catalogues-of-archival-material/

item 5 is about Fr. Theobald Mathew and his total abstinence campaign .  Although FROGSMILE said above the sashes weren't Temperance,  I wonder if the sashes worn by the men relate to  a Capuchin related Temperance Society. Perhaps A Sanyal could contact the Irish Capuchin Archives.

 

The FIBIS Fibiwiki page Temperance organisations https://wiki.fibis.org/w/Temperance_organisations has some information about the major Temperance Societies, which seem likely to be  Protestant aligned organisation.

 

Maureen

The idea of a Capuchin based Temperance association definitely seems a strong possibility Maureene, and I did look for such a thing, but to no avail.  Nonetheless, I think that you’re likely correct.  The garrisons of India originally had a strong Temperance movement (‘Total Abstinence Society’) that evolved and stood alone throughout the period straddling the Indian Mutiny (initially inspired by Havelock) before becoming an Army wide movement under the influence of various general officers, including Lords Wolseley and Roberts.  In the early stages there were apparently quite a number of individual, regimental Temperance Societies, but by 1897 these had became absorbed by an overarching Army Temperance Association (ATA).  Nevertheless, it seems to me entirely likely that the Capuchins led a faith based organisation that perhaps remained outside the ATA.  Unfortunately I cannot so far find any remaining trace of it in the form of surviving sashes or medallions of the design seen in the photo.  It’s also quite intriguing from a political viewpoint, as I cannot imagine that an Army still sensitive about politico religious movements would have been happy to encourage an organisation that stood outside the ATA.  It’s certainly an interesting and potentially fraught scenario.   The following can be seen on page 121 in item 5 (pdf) of the link I provided and seems highly relevant:

 

“9.3. Temperance Society Medals
Level: Sub-series
Date of Creation: Medals: 1821-c.1900; Provenance information: c.1915-1981 Scope and Content:
The Cork Total Abstinence Society’s medals were important because they served as important reminders of the pledge, and also as miniature temperance catechisms for the many illiterates who took the pledge. Fr. Mathew’s medals were large and inscribed with familiar religious symbolism. Most were of pewter, although some silver and gold medals were also available for particularly distinguished members. Generally, one side had the words of the pledge within a shining cross, together with Fr. Mathew’s name and the Society’s founding date (10 April 1838). The reverse depicted a well-dressed man, carrying a banner, ‘prosperity’, and a woman, ‘domestic comfort’, stood next to a lamb, surmounted by a cross and an angel. This scene was overlaid by the Latin phrase, In hoc signo vinces (‘by this sign shall you conquer’).
Format: Artefacts, manuscript, typescript and clipping Extent: 44 items; 12 pp
The sub-series contains an important collection of original temperance society
medals. Most of the medals in the collection are associated with Fr. Mathew’s campaign but some
 relate to temperance activities before and after him.”

 

Addendum:  I think that the medallions worn by the soldiers relate to the “Roman Catholic Temperance Society” as seen on the frontispiece of the manual shown below.  Notice also the reference to League of the Cross on the pledge document, which might well refer to what’s seen on two of the soldiers sashes, presumably marking a promotion through enduring abstinence that is rewarded also with the star shaped medal.  Both pledge and manual (printed in Calcutta) are dated 1896 and so chime with the period of the photo.
 

 There is a good explanation of Father Theobald Mathew and his widespread influence here: https://www.patheos.com/blogs/mcnamarasblog/2018/12/before-alcoholics-anonymous-father-mathew-and-the-pledge.html

 

 

Edited 21 June , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[corisande]

8 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

 One of the things that struck me as unusual given the number of soldiers in the frame is that there’s not a single substantive NCO present.

 

If the photo were a Catholic "association" of some sort, would that  not exclude most officers and senior NCOs. I am not sure of what the RMF policy would have been on NCO promotions at that time

Edited 21 June , 2021 by corisande

[FROGSMILE]

6 minutes ago, corisande said:

 

If the photo were a Catholic "association" of some sort, would that  not exclude most officers and senior NCOs. I am not sure of what the RMF policy would have been on NCO promotions at that time

That’s a very excellent point corisande.  As you will no doubt be aware for a long time it was forbidden for members of the Roman Catholic religion to hold any Crown office, including a commission in the Army.  That was eventually repealed, but I can’t recall immediately when that was.  It certainly would explain the absence of any battalion hierarchy whatsoever, which otherwise seems most odd.

Edited 21 June , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[corisande]

As you know Catholicism was important in the Irish Regiments, probably best summed up by the iconic painting of 2nd RMF going into battle and getting the Absolution from Fr Gleeson

 

Article in Irish Times gives more detail - click- and there have been a number of threads here.. "The Last General Absolution of the Munsters at Rue du Bois - painting by Fortunino Matania."

 

 

 

[FROGSMILE]

7 minutes ago, corisande said:

As you know Catholicism was important in the Irish Regiments, probably best summed up by the iconic painting of 2nd RMF going into battle and getting the Absolution from Fr Gleeson

 

Article in Irish Times gives more detail - click- and there have been a number of threads here.. "The Last General Absolution of the Munsters at Rue du Bois - painting by Fortunino Matania."

 

 

 

Yes the importance of faith within the Irish infantry regiments was certainly extremely well exemplified by the RMF and that famous incident.

 

Unfortunately I’m struggling to find an image of the medallion worn by the two soldiers with the cross on their sashes, but I’m confident it is that depicted on the frontispiece to the manual shown above.